Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Everyone,

I would like to suggest we use Yahoo Groups for our discussions. It can be used in the same way we are using this forum (i.e. lurkers are welcome to read discussion threads) but has heaps of other features for those willing to ‘join’ the group.

Joining the group means creating a yahoo account (just as you had to create an Aussie Stock Forum account if you wanted to post to this forum). The extra features include:
•A group calendar
•A central location for attachments (currently it is too hard to go back and find attachments on this 16 page thread)
•It enables multiple threads to be created for each topic of discussion
•We can create polls and get an idea of how people feel about certain topics.
•We can create databases and other more advanced features if needed.

I think the group is going to grow quickly (especially after the WC updates in July) and so need a better way to organise our information and keep everyone up to date.

I have created an example Yahoo Group at this link http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PIFActionGroup. If you want to see the full features of the group you will need to ‘join the group’. Please note this is just an example and it will be deleted (so not to cause confusion) if it’s decided not to use Yahoo.

Regards,
Dora.

Hi Dora, I think this idea will be a very usefull tool in the management of the AG. I have asked Rocky and Breaker to have a look at it.Would certainly make the access of information much easier.I also just checked out the WC website www.newpif.com.au and it seems to be comprehensive though not quite complete. I am so over Perpetual Nominees being the Trustees of the Fund!! So what if quote:erpetual Nominees Limited is the custodian of the Premium Income Fund, and has been established for 122 years. Perpetual Nominees Limited holds the title to the assets on behalf of the Fund.::::: They have been as much use as t1ts on a boar pig to date!!!!! Rocky I agree, enough is enough. The AG is at some stage is going to need legal representation. As a member, I am all for contributing to a AG fighting Fund when and if it is set up.Regards, Seamisty

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I have attached the 2 other documents (in additon to the one on post 367).

Apparently letters were delayed and left yesterday??? Octaviara budget cuts probably means only one monkey licking stamps these days.

 

[Ivor Watt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I agree - $100 is a very small price to pay for necessary legal advice, considering the amount we may stand to lose if we make an uninformed decision.
Having an incorporated legal entity set up with proper legal backing will give the Action Group far more credibility and power, while protecting the individual members. Possibly the $100 per member can go into a general fighting fund account as there will also be costs associated with Action Group meetings which can be paid from this fund (e.g. advertising, printing, venue hire).

I agree with you, we need to have a coordinated informed approach and if this costs $100 each it will be money well spent.
We will get nowhere waiting for the likes of ASIC to get off their bum and do something.
I think nominating a power of attorney to act on our behalf is a good idea and one way of making sure there is a coordinated effort. We have to get this right and need good professional advice to do that.

 

[Jenny]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I agree that we should have a fighting fund and am happy to contribute $100 for legal advice etc. Re: the forms for the meetings: our "financial advisor" (who helped us get in this mess in the first place) emailed me the form then when I expressed interest in attending the meeting in Sydney sent the following message:

"I have just made enquiries and have been advised that as your investment was made via an administration service ( ie The Avenue Investment Service) you are not reqiured to complete the invitation which was attached to the previous email. A seperate acceptance is required which I will send directly to them on your behalf."

So if you have also invested through Avenue or similar you may have to go through your financial advisor to register for the meeting.

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good afternoon Investors

The solicitor I recommended to Javier acted on behalf of a group of investors in another scheme and it resulted in a positive outcome (positive in terms of making the best of a bad situation)

As I suggested forming the incorporated body gives real structure for your cause but I think membership joining fee should be lower or you need some discretion. There will be investors out there that due to this cannot even put food on the table and have no access to safety net of centrelink.

$100 will seem like a mountain right now so you hope other more well off members could put a bit more than $100 in so you get an average of $100 per member. You still want these people in dire positions as members.

Those in contact with WC can you find out if there will be a information pack sent out before the meeting, available at the meeting or distributed afterwards so that members can fully understand and study the position.

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Tuart

This is on the www.newpif.com.au website

The Board of Wellington Investment Management Limited is committed to answering all of investors’ questions in relation to the Premium Income Fund, and has set aside considerable question time after the presentation to address investors’ concerns.

If you are unable to attend

The presentation made to investors at the series of meetings will be posted to all investors at the conclusion of the meeting series. In addition, the presentation will be available for download from this site through Company Announcements.

If the presentation isn't posted on website on the 7th, whoever attends the Brisbance forum should post a copy of any handouts (am I too hopeful) on this forum??

 

[Tuart]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks Iamspeed

It will be interesting to see how much detail is provided on the individual positions of each investment

 

[erniel]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Please advise solicitors name and trust bank account details in order for me to deposit the $100,00.
thanks .erniel

 

[marcom]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I agree that we should have a fighting fund and am happy to contribute $100 for legal advice etc. Re: the forms for the meetings: our "financial advisor" (who helped us get in this mess in the first place) emailed me the form then when I expressed interest in attending the meeting in Sydney sent the following message:

"I have just made enquiries and have been advised that as your investment was made via an administration service ( ie The Avenue Investment Service) you are not reqiured to complete the invitation which was attached to the previous email. A seperate acceptance is required which I will send directly to them on your behalf."

So if you have also invested through Avenue or similar you may have to go through your financial advisor to register for the meeting.

Thanks for this very interesting info Jenny - Yes THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!

Avenue Capital Management (ACM) Chairman is/was Paul Manka who is also Chairman of Octavier. Another former Director of MFS is Michael Hiscock who is/was the partner in the ACM North Sydney office.

The reason for the is/was is that while I was trying to check these facts on the ACM website the names and details of both Manka and Hiscock seem to have disapeared. Now I wonder if it has anything to do with a certain court appearance yesterday the details of which are in this mornings article in The Business Spectator:

[B]Octaviar Pair Dealt Court Blow[/B]

Abstracted from The Australian Financial Review

Two men involved with the Octaviar group in Australia have lost a court bid. Two family trusts controlled by Octaviar chair Paul Manka have been put into voluntary liquidation. The same thing has happened to a company controlled by former Octaviar director Michael Hiscock. The pair did not come up with a total of $A10.6 million they owed on failed margin loans. On 18 June 2008, the pair lost a bid for court orders that they pay the debt to be set aside. The judge in the case, Reginald Barrett, said that it would be fruitless to appeal against his decision. He ruled that Citi Smith Barney did not breach its $A10 million margin loan agreement with Hiscock. Five big creditors are watching Octaviar, which failed to make a payment to noteholders earlier in June 2008


And try this piece from Crikey today;

Octavier's woes. Octaviar chairman, Paul Manka, and former director, Michael Hiscock, suffered yet another blow yesterday, with the NSW Supreme Court refusing to set aside their respective $5.7 million and $4.9 million debts to margin lender, Citi Smith Barney. Manka and Hiscock are both financial planners at Avenue Capital Management and have been long-time directors of the crippled MFS/Octaviar group. Octaviar chief executive, Craig Chapman, a close ally of Chris Scott, told the Financial Review that "the matter involved the personal affairs of Mr Manka and Mr Hiscock and would have no impact on the company." We respectfully disagree with Chapman’s views. If Manka’s margin loan (which was taken by a family trust and holding company) has recourse to Manka himself, Octaviar could very find itself with a bankrupt chairman. Given Octaviar’s current precarious position (the company hasn’t traded since January, with its auditors unwilling to sign-off on the business as a going-concern) that fact could be highly relevant to Octaviar. -- Adam Schwab

So I wonder what is going on here?? The remaining Directors/Partners in ACM a little fearful that the bad press may frighten away clients????

For anyone who is interested in this ACM/Manka/Hiskcock connection with MFS/Octaviar, Crikey.com.au has a few enlightening articles on how ACM was a major supplier of investors for MFS and some other very interesting info.

So Jenny do you think that you got unbiased independent financial advice?

 

[k.smith]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dear AG , we are more than happy to put in our $100 shares, and feel we need the help of a good corporate lawyer to give us some insight as to what has happened to our monies, some of the theories being bandied around, esp. about the $200 million RBOS loan and the NZ connection, the NSX listing ,and is it $14,000 or is it the price of a postage stamp? to get the list of investors? I do know that JH was the chairman for S8, because her name is on City Pacifics company announcements on 15 July, 2004. And what was the reports a few months ago re: MFS will buy City Pacific, then City Pacific will buy MFS>>> what was that all about? We need to know all the facts before we are channelled into decisions, we feel we have been duped enough already

 

[marcom]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Here's one of the Crikey stories from the free list:

Avenue's conficted connecton to toubled MFS

Tuesday, 1 April 2008

Adam Schwab writes

"While MFS changes its name to Octavier and continues its battle for survival, another piece of MFS is in even more strife.

The MFS Premium Income Fund -- technically a separate entity but managed by MFS -- has already suspended distributions and redemptions and is currently in breach of a $184 million loan facility with HBOS. Further, a report prepared by investment firm Lonsec noted that investors should expect to recover 95 cents in the dollar. However, that's assuming MFS stands by a $50 million support facility. Given MFS’s current situation, PIF unitholders won’t be holding their collective breath.

Auditor PwC was even less optimistic about PIF’s prospects, noting that there was uncertainty as to whether PIF will be able to continue operating as a going concern.

As with everything MFS, there seem to be double doses of clumsiness and conflict permeating the MFS Premium Income debacle.

The AFR’s Paddy Manning revealed on Saturday that:

One financial planning dealer group with links to MFS/Octavier is Avenue Capital Management. Avenue director Michael Hiscock recently resigned from MFS/Octavier board, and MFS/Octavier deputy chairman, Paul Manka, is also a director of Avenue.

Strangely, Manning didn’t go in for the kill, instead noting that:

Avenue clients have about $51 million directly or indirectly invested in the MFS Premium Income fund – a small proportion of total $1.4 billion under advice.

Despite board connections, Avenue Director Simon Clifford told the Weekend AFR on Friday that "MFS has nothing to do with us ... there is no link between MFS and ACM."

There are two points that should be corrected. First, despite Avenue’s claims, there do appear to be several key links between Avenue and MFS Premium Income Fund. And it appears that those links may have led to clients of Avenue investing a greater proportion of their savings in MFS PIF than if they'd been with a non-conflicted financial planner.

Avenue director Michael Hiscock was, until last week, a director of MFS. Hiscock was also a director of MFS Living and Leisure and was chairman of MFS Diversified. MFS PIF invested unitholders’ funds in MFS Living and Leisure and MFS Diversified (MFS Living and Leisure owes MFS PIF $67 million, due in May, although Lonsec claims repayment of the sum is in "significant doubt"). Even though Hiscock wasn’t a director of PIF itself, he was a director of the responsible entity of PIF (MFS itself) and chairman of a fund which owes PIF $67 million.

Similarly, MFS chairman-designate, Paul Manka, showed that he can be as conflicted as his fellow board member, simultaneously serving as an Avenue financial planner while also being a director of MFS Diversified, MFS Living and Leisure and MFS itself.

Further, the claim that Avenue’s investment of $51 million (out of what is actually $1.7 billion funds-under-management) in MFS PIF is a "small proportion" of funds under advice seems somewhat hopeful. Avenue director, Simon Clifford, told Crikey that any advice provided to clients to invest in MFS PIF came after the fund was recommended by research house Lonsec and that "everything was done by the book".

However, the fact remains that of the $754 million raised by MFS Premium Income Fund, $51 million came from clients of Avenue Capital Management. Avenue itself confirmed that across both PIF Wholesale and Retail funds it was the third largest investor in the funds despite it being far smaller than the likes of AXA’s Hillross (with FUM of more than $5 billion) or Count Financial (FUM of $12 billion).

Clifford also noted that PIF wasn’t the major avenue for its clients, with Avenue investing greater amounts in Macquarie Cash Management Trust (more than $120 million) and Perpetual Premium Income Fund. However, Avenue only started funneling clients' funds into PIF in early 2005 after Lonsec started recommending the fund.

By contrast, Avenue would presumably have been recommending clients invest in Macquarie and Perpetual since 2000. While not confirmed by Avenue, based on the numbers, it would appear that in the last three years, PIF may have been the largest recipient of Avenue clients’ funds.

It should be remembered that while MFS PIF has been frozen, there is still a chance that investors will receive some or most of their funds back. No doubt Avenue and their advisors at Lonsec will be hoping they do".

 

[iamspeed]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks Iamspeed

It will be interesting to see how much detail is provided on the individual positions of each investment

This would either put minds at ease or cause nightmares. Surely they have a summarised spreadsheet of loans - JH would have wanted this surely? I don't need names of borrows (privacy issues maybe?) but would be nice to know - amount, interest rate, when due, if overdue, security (fingers crossed). Same goes for the Fixed Interest component - what are the actual names of the holdings, if they have a maturity date? Plus more detailed info on Causeway and Maximum Yield Fund (as per February update).

 

[wally3218]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The registration forms state
The forum venues are listed below. Please complete your registration details below, along with your investor ID number and advise
your preferred location. If you would like us to consider additional venues, please send your request to the address below. Entry will
be limited to registered Unit holders.
Does this mean that I am not able to go and help my elderly pensioner mother with any advice.
She will have trouble remembering all she will be told and even now she does'nt understand what has happened to her money, just that she not getting any income.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The registration forms state
The forum venues are listed below. Please complete your registration details below, along with your investor ID number and advise
your preferred location. If you would like us to consider additional venues, please send your request to the address below. Entry will
be limited to registered Unit holders.
Does this mean that I am not able to go and help my elderly pensioner mother with any advice.
She will have trouble remembering all she will be told and even now she does'nt understand what has happened to her money, just that she not getting any income.

Wally could you perhaps get your mother to sign something to the effect that you will represent her ie.her proxy?Regards, Seamisty

 

[Rocky1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Just wondering how the AG member meetings in all locations are tracking.

We have 8 members here in melbourne (+ 1 investor from Tasmania who we have included in our group) and are hoping to meet up next week

Communique - I just emailed you some details of a non internet user who would like you to contact her for the GC meeting - thanks

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The registration forms state
The forum venues are listed below. Please complete your registration details below, along with your investor ID number and advise
your preferred location. If you would like us to consider additional venues, please send your request to the address below. Entry will
be limited to registered Unit holders.
Does this mean that I am not able to go and help my elderly pensioner mother with any advice.
She will have trouble remembering all she will be told and even now she does'nt understand what has happened to her money, just that she not getting any income.

You should be able to attend as her proxy - you might need your mother to sign a made up proxy statement or u need to get a form from WC. I'd go regardless using your mums investor id number. It's worth a call to WC office.
WC office number: 1300 368 848

 

[zixo]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WC is NOT the RE..a solicitor did some searches on our behalf and it seems that Octaviar Investment Management Limited is still the RE, but has just undergone a name change to Wellington Capital Investment Management..the RE licence is still Octaviar. She has merely purchased the management rights, this is just a way to try and keep WC as her being "accepted" by OCV means that the little clause in the PDS about a change in RE absolves OCV of the $50m Callable Facility, if we replace her then it's gone with another RE. All very smart BUT if she can't deliver on the $50m..or at least a good chunk of it..she is no different to any other RE that may present itself to us. JH better do a good deal for PIF and not a deal for OCV and Chris Scott. The solicitor also advises that there have been a zillion constitutional changes, which are only allowed without the consent of investors ONLY on the proviso these changes do not adversely affect investors. With all these losses, if there has been a constutional change that has adversely affected us, then there is cause for ASIC to investigate. Gee you know I wonder if JH really knows how much of a headache this is going to be for her AND to her rep?

She also advise us to request a list of all investors and a copy of the fund's constitution. I am hopefully meeting with her soon to advise me of other requirements and costs to move forward..will advise.

Excellent research Javiar.

The RBOS are not blameless in PIF investor suffering
I was Interested to note BANKWEST are the Subsidary of the ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND.
Bankwest will now be losing me as an Investor.
I can’t bank with a financial Institution who shuts down a fund for an undisclosed loan which may have had long term payment date.
The Premium Income Fund Incurred a loan to LLA whilst the bank had stopped distributions and redemptions and then behaved as if it was doing the PIF a huge service.

I have been following the RBOS and it has had some financial heart attacks lately. Most the rating agencies have downgraded it because of their mismanagement.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11074947

I’m amazed that MFS/Octaviar are still heavily Involved with the Fund. In effect it’s only just a name change.
We still have Hutchins and Perpetual in the loop.
What’s to stop this all happening again if the same structure is there?

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This article below is a warning that listing on any stock exchange now maybe a bad idea - further, it is advice from one of the largest banks in the world RBOS.

Royal Bank of Scotland issues global stock and credit crash alert
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Telegraph
June 18, 2008

http://www.infowars.com/?p=2731

The Royal Bank of Scotland has advised clients to brace for a full-fledged crash in global stock and credit markets over the next three months as inflation paralyses the major central banks.




“A very nasty period is soon to be upon us - be prepared,” said Bob Janjuah, the bank’s credit strategist.

A report by the bank’s research team warns that the S&P 500 index of Wall Street equities is likely to fall by more than 300 points to around 1050 by September as “all the chickens come home to roost” from the excesses of the global boom, with contagion spreading across Europe and emerging markets.

Such a slide on world bourses would amount to one of the worst bear markets over the last century.

RBS said the iTraxx index of high-grade corporate bonds could soar to 130/150 while the “Crossover” index of lower grade corporate bonds could reach 650/700 in a renewed bout of panic on the debt markets.

“I do not think I can be much blunter. If you have to be in credit, focus on quality, short durations, non-cyclical defensive names.

Read article

Alex Jones LIVE, A Fourth Hour Now Added To The Infowars Radio Show For Members
Click here to get your subscription today!



3 Responses to “Royal Bank of Scotland issues global stock and credit crash alert”
3 chris Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
unfortunately the stock market crash will only be the beginning as the dollar and currencies that depend on the dollar crash and then completely collapse… If you have not begun preparing already, you may want to do so we most likely only have a few months left before things get bad

2 Jack Boot Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I think what people need to realize is that Citzens Bank (http://www.citizensbank.com) is the Royal Bank of Scotland in disguise.

1 NewsMediaLies Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I just saw this on CNN as well - Holy crapola!

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Regarding forum invitation letter delays, one AG member has received theirs today, so they are coming out:

"Hi Breaker, Surprise Surprise The letter & registration form turned up this am, only hope we get a good turnout of investors.to ask some pertinent questions Thanks again"

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am being swamped with numbers for Sydney. My initial plan is now out the window for location. Any suggestions will be more than welcome. Thanks!