Unanswered 9/11 questions

wayneL said:

So you are quite prepared to accept the Israeli propaganda without question?

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No,the question is ,why are you prepared to accept the terrorist propoganda,so easily?

They were exposed using photogenic dead children for sympathy!The series of photos does`nt lie,and at the end of the photo shoot the leader of this mob on this particular occasion went home,to be interviewed by a french reporter all this is on the record.

Sure there two sides to every story,but the photos clearly shows him choosing dead children to use for the photo that he knew would break our hearts,the dead children were there ,he was in various poses that then we saw in our papers,representing himself as either the father or a family member.

Maybe like the ambulance that was hit by a missile but miracularly did`nt explode into smithereens we were`nt supposed to see this ,but we did .

Heres the series of photos I was referring to.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html

visual said:

No,the question is ,why are you prepared to accept the terrorist propoganda,so easily?

They were exposed using photogenic dead children for sympathy!The series of photos does`nt lie,and at the end of the photo shoot the leader of this mob on this particular occasion went home,to be interviewed by a french reporter all this is on the record.

Sure there two sides to every story,but the photos clearly shows him choosing dead children to use for the photo that he knew would break our hearts,the dead children were there ,he was in various poses that then we saw in our papers,representing himself as either the father or a family member.

Maybe like the ambulance that was hit by a missile but miracularly did`nt explode into smithereens we were`nt supposed to see this ,but we did .

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I don't accept any propaganda whether hezbollah or Israeli or US or Oz. Hezbollah was caught out. Shame on them. I'm not here to defend Hezbollah.

It does not remove the fact that Israel blew the crap out of Lebanon... not just Hezbollah... they attacked the WHOLE country, north to south east to west... with US made missiles from US made warplanes.

I'm questioning the Israeli actions.

Do you think the response was proportional? The international community, in general, does not think so.

wayneL said:

So you are quite prepared to accept the Israeli propaganda without question?

Why is it unacceptable for Lebanon to recieve armaments from Syria/Iran, yet it is quite OK for Israel to accept substantially more and more lethal armaments from the US?

Does that not seem biased?

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Wayne are you comparing iran and syria with America?
A place that requires 4 male witnesses to a rape or the woman gets stoned?
So exactly what type of human right were you expecting again?
Time for bed I think.Obviously this has been a waste of time,but I could`nt sleep anyway.

wayneL said:

I don't accept any propaganda whether hezbollah or Israeli or US or Oz. Hezbollah was caught out. Shame on them. I'm not here to defend Hezbollah.

It does not remove the fact that Israel blew the crap out of Lebanon... not just Hezbollah... they attacked the WHOLE country, north to south east to west... with US made missiles from US made warplanes.

I'm questioning the Israeli actions.

Do you think the response was proportional? The international community, in general, does not think so.

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Wayne,what are you on about,north and south.
I see you spent oh what not even a heart beat being horrified by their behaviour,got caught out you say,oh then thats all right ,carry on

Even the Saudi did`nt think this war was wrong.Egypt did`nt either,who are you talking about

visual said:

Wayne are you comparing iran and syria with America?
A place that requires 4 male witnesses to a rape or the woman gets stoned?
So exactly what type of human right were you expecting again?
Time for bed I think.Obviously this has been a waste of time,but I could`nt sleep anyway.

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I'm sure the Native Americans or African Americans (to be ever so PC) would love to discuss such issues with you. I will abstain.

visual said:

I see you spent oh what not even a heart beat being horrified by their behaviour,got caught out you say,oh then thats all right ,carry on

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Don't you dare interpret my views in such a manner. Thats very disingenuous.

I am horrified by any innocent life destroyed, Lebanese, Israeli, Iraqi American Australian... anyone.

wayneL said:

I'm sure the Native Americans or African Americans (to be ever so PC) would love to discuss such issues with you. I will abstain.

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Wayne ,now you are being churlish,abstain all you like,I`m sure the African Americans or the Indians will be happy,

You hate America but rely on their system to earn a crust,surely you are supporting a society you despise,well until they get it right,that is, perhaps you should show you disgust by boycotting their markets,but then it will cost you money,and a way of making money that you understand and learning another market or relying on a much smaller market would be a pain ,right?
So it`s all about money,with you as well.
Good night.

wayneL said:

Don't you dare interpret my views in such a manner. Thats very disingenuous.

I am horrified by any innocent life destroyed, Lebanese, Israeli, Iraqi American Australian... anyone.

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You have spent hours on this thread,but those photos just got,an oh they got caught out!and then you carried on with your hate of America.Disingenious not me mate,been there,Wayne,I even have the scars to prove it,discuss honestly don`t try and reeducate me.I`ve had enough education to last me a life time and more.

visual said:

Wayne ,now you are being churlish,abstain all you like,I`m sure the African Americans or the Indians will be happy,

You hate America but rely on their system to earn a crust,surely you are supporting a society you despise,well until they get it right,that is, perhaps you should show you disgust by boycotting their markets,but then it will cost you money,and a way of making money that you understand and learning another market or relying on a much smaller market would be a pain ,right?
So it`s all about money,with you as well.
Good night.

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I am conflicted on that point, I must admit.

But to be clear.

I am disgusted by the US governent.

I am disgusted by some Americans.

I am in awe of some Americans. Some Americans are magnificent and my admiration is profound.

But then again I am disgusted by most every other western government at the moment as well. So for the moment I am happy to do my bit in helping the Oz balance of trade. In effect I am an exporter as I bring in foreign cash. Surely that counts for something.

Btw. The US is a consumer of Iranian oil, so go figure.

Interesting you feel you must cast aspersions on my charactar because you disagree with my politics. hmmmm

visual said:

You have spent hours on this thread,but those photos just got,an oh they got caught out!and then you carried on with your hate of America.Disingenious not me mate,been there,Wayne,I even have the scars to prove it,discuss honestly don`t try and reeducate me.I`ve had enough education to last me a life time and more.

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Visual,

You seem angry. Is it something I said?

Well Visual apparantly has left me to figure out the cast of charactars in this particular conflagration (pun intended)

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

LOLOL

wayneL said:

I am conflicted on that point, I must admit.

But to be clear.
I am disgusted by the US governent.

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Why are you disgusted with the US Government Wayne? Would you prefer them to have remained in their 'Isolation Policy' pre WW2. I for one accept that due to the US involvement post this period, has directly enabled the democracy we in Australia and Europe now enjoy (although the UK stood alone in such a crucial defining moment).

The issues we face as a global economy/world today, although starkly different from History,distinct paralels can be drawn and if anything we should not repeat our past mistakes.By doing nothing is like doing what Chamberlain did with Hitler.

In regard to Israel Wayne, Israel is landlocked and surrounded by the Arab countries. These countries don't want Israel their, infact they want them totally annhilated and to simply not exist. I by no means consider myself to be a racist but the facts are what they are. The majority of countries around Israel are led by fanatical leaders leading the fanatical mass of no-brainers. Sure Israel has armed themselves to the teeth and they take pre-emptive actions against their neighbours to guarantee their own national security. What action should they take against suicide bombers & armed fanatics that live amongst citizens and have no regimented armed forces. If that was us imagine the tension Israel's feel surrounded by this and the potential of some of these Arab countries gaining Nuclear Weapons in your backyard.

In todays world we do live in a global economy and issues affect us all. Iran affects us right now, if they obtain Nuclear enrichment the possabilities in the middle east could become chronic.

I don't appreciate or condone much of the socities of Arab countries. Whoever what they do on their own soil, to their own people is their own business. If their activities affect my way of life or their own people want to uprise out of suppresion and need a hand then I would expect the UN to stand up to the plate. The sad reality is that the UN dosent and stuffs around with its own internal politics when swift decisive action is needed at times. If the US and a handful of others will step up, well so be it because thats better than the alternative.

I wonder Wayne, if the crap really hit the fan and affected your way of life in Geraldton, wear would you stand. Would you continue to appese with rhetoric, theories and wish washy ideolgy whilst a fanatic straps a bomb to your butt!.

I admit your entitled to your views and opinions in a country like Oz, certainly this freedom wasn't afforded to you without past sacrifies of strong willed real Aussies.

wayneL said:

Don't you dare interpret my views in such a manner. Thats very disingenuous.

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Wayne on post 90 and 91 you make some immature comments.
But here looks like I got under your skin,afraid that what I said is right.
A person who admires Americans even some of them,would`nt betray them or their past sacrifices ,sacrifices that now allow you to lead a life that you clearly don`t appreciate.
Wayne you`ll now be on my ignore list.Have a good life.

visual said:

Wayne on post 90 and 91 you make some immature comments.
But here looks like I got under your skin,afraid that what I said is right.
A person who admires Americans even some of them,would`nt betray them or their past sacrifices ,sacrifices that now allow you to lead a life that you clearly don`t appreciate.
Wayne you`ll now be on my ignore list.Have a good life.

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Visual,

Your argument style lacks logic. You cannot claim points you clearly have not scored. You allow anger to take over from rational thought. You did not get under my skin. You made claims about my character and I called you on it. Here you have done it again. I take particular exception to the above comment.

Are you incapable of debating the points? This is obvious as you have gone ad hominem.

Making scurilous claims you cannot know are true is contemptable. Please withdraw your comment above and debate me on the issues if you are capable.

I knew this one was going to end in tears. But imo Wayne in this particular thread you haven't been shying away from the odd 'ad hominems' either, calling people's arguments and opinions disingeneous, etc. Just my

wayneL said:

Visual,

Your argument style lacks logic. You cannot claim points you clearly have not scored. You allow anger to take over from rational thought. You did not get under my skin. You made claims about my character and I called you on it. Here you have done it again. I take particular exception to the above comment.

Are you incapable of debating the points? This is obvious as you have gone ad hominem.

Making scurilous claims you cannot know are true is contemptable. Please withdraw your comment above and debate me on the issues if you are capable.

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Wayne,
re-read your comment and tell me you have`nt made a personal attack,
from what I gather I`m incapable,illogical,and unable to sustain an argument therefore quick to anger,presumably because of all of the above.
You withdraw first.
And thanks Rub,as he said ,I`m also disingenous.
Not personal!
You have run this argument as though everything you believe is fact,wheres I`ve been reading both sides of the story ,and making my judgement accordingly.

wayneL said:

It does not remove the fact that Israel blew the crap out of Lebanon... not just Hezbollah... they attacked the WHOLE country, north to south east to west... with US made missiles from US made warplanes.

I'm questioning the Israeli actions.

Do you think the response was proportional? The international community, in general, does not think so.

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Looked up Disingenous,which I take means false.
Function: adjective
: lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : CALCULATING

Yet clearly what you claim isn`t true.
You can question Israel actions,all you like.But Lebanon is not bombed from top to bottom or left to right.


Because I know you love dictionaries,and will probably quibble the meaning I attributed to the word,heres the proper usage.

USAGE NOTE The meaning of disingenuous has been shifting about lately, as if people were unsure of its proper meaning. Generally, it means “insincere” and often seems to be a synonym of cynical or calculating. Not surprisingly, the word is used often in political contexts, as in It is both insensitive and disingenuous for the White House to describe its aid package and the proposal to eliminate the federal payment as “tough love.” This use of the word is accepted by 94 percent of the Usage Panel. Most Panelists also accept the extended meaning relating to less reproachable behavior. Fully 88 percent accept disingenuous with the meaning “playfully insincere, faux-naïf,” as in the example “I don't have a clue about late Beethoven!” he said. The remark seemed disingenuous, coming from one of the world's foremost concert pianists. Sometimes disingenuous is used as a synonym for naive, as if the dis– prefix functioned as an intensive (as it does in certain words like disannul) rather than as a negative element. This usage does not find much admiration among Panelists, however. Seventy-five percent do not accept it in the phrase a disingenuous tourist who falls prey to stereotypical con artists.

rub92me said:

I knew this one was going to end in tears. But imo Wayne in this particular thread you haven't been shying away from the odd 'ad hominems' either, calling people's arguments and opinions disingeneous, etc. Just my

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How about adding some content then, rather than sniping from the sidelines.

Interesting (I hope) documentary on the ABC at 9.20pm tonight.

"The Falling Man" (photo of a man jumping from one of the towers)

Irrespective of the discussions to date I feel sorry for all the victims of hate (on both sides) and in this instance for the state of mind that man was in - to think that his only option was to jump from the building to certain death.

Dutchie

I noticed the Ambulance was used as an example of Lebanese propaganda... apparently, the theory goes, that it wasn't bombed, it was stage managed!

Visual, it looks like you weren't the only one who thought this was false. Even Alexander Downer made a speech disparaging the attack on the ambulance as false...

Alas, he, like you, relies on GOOGLE get information... and we all know the internet has articles that prove and disprove everything...

this is from today's Australian (editorial)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20308892-7583,00.html

That the truth is not always easy to discern must be better appreciated by Mr Downer following his embrace of the Lebanese ambulance incident, as presented by internet site http://www.zombietime.com. In his speech to PANPA, Mr Downer said the incident, in which it was claimed Israel had deliberately bombed a Red Cross ambulance, did not stand up to even the most rudimentary scrutiny. Mr Downer said that after closer study of the images of the damage to the ambulance, it was beyond serious dispute that this episode has all the makings of a hoax. His source? A pro-Israel website that specialises in posting pictures of student protests, naked bicycle riders and historic pictures of the prophet Mohammed. In a lengthy posting, the website puts forward its own conspiracy theory and claims the incident never took place.

This newspaper (The Australian) was aware of the website claims but, rather than accept them at face value, dispatched reporter Martin Chulov to review the evidence and reinterview those involved. In his report in the Media section today, Chulov stands by the original account and says damage to the ambulance is consistent with the original claims of attack. We have done what a good newspaper should, done the leg work and reported the facts. Mr Downer may himself have fallen for the propaganda trick he is keen to warn against.

...


Mr Downer is correct that the first duty of responsible media is to get the facts straight even when that story might not necessarily conform to existing opinions or prejudices. But, as his experience highlights, this is equally true for politicians.

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Visual, I think you need to check your sources out and please, for the millionth time... DO NOT BELEIVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!

And please, just because you happen to agree with the views in that particular article form that conclusion that it must be true!

The Ambulance WAS bombed by Israel... If a News Ltd paper like the Australian can categorically say that, then i think even you should stop and listen.

Everything you see on TV, read on the Internet is propaganda from one side or the other...