The Australian Greens party

[Smurf1976]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

What do we define as a Socialist?

Or Julia, a Socialist Agenda?

Actual definition I'm not sure but I'd say that prioritising wealth redistribution rather than wealth generation is a defining characteristic of most (all?) socialist governments.

In Australia it seems that all the major parties are somewhat to the Left. The Liberals would be closest to the center, but they're still very much into redistribution and middle class welfare. Labor a bit more and Greens a bit more again.

 

[Julia]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Explod, see Smurf's answer.
Thanks, Smurf.

 

[white_goodman]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I saw first hand the Socialist system working very well when I was over in Sweden studying, many years ago now (1976) so has probably changed a lot since then.

might not be the model of socialism that you hold dear..

http://www.libera.fi/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Libera_The-Swedish-model.pdf

 

[McLovin]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I saw first hand the Socialist system working very well when I was over in Sweden studying, many years ago now (1976) so has probably changed a lot since then.

Sweden ain't socialist.

 

[explod]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Sweden ain't socialist.

It certainly was, the Government controlled everything, private enterprise to a degree was allowed but very controlled, no advertising or billboards on shops, everyone had a home, controlled and owned by the state. All land is public but leased where it can be afforded.

What is your idea of Socialist?

 

[McLovin]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

What is your idea of Socialist?

No private enterprise; The means of production are owned by the state. That's not my idea, that is socialism. Sweden has some of the world's most successful private enterprises (Erickson, Volvo, Electrolux, Smeg, ABB, Scania, Akzo Nobel). It also has a relatively low corporate tax rate (lower than both Australia and the US), which is not what you'd ordinarily associate with socialism.

It's almost embarrassing to see how many household names a small frozen country create through high tech manufacturing while we run around with shovels digging up the ground, worried about the socialist bogeyman.

 

[sptrawler]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

As we get closer to the election, it is interesting the greens are softening their policies.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...sroads-20121230-2c1bz.html?rand=1356872291516

Or are they just taking a leaf out of Gillards book and saying what the electorate want to hear.
Then if or when, they obtain some clout they just do as they wish anyway. The voters have been conned once, it will be interesting to see if they can pull it off again.

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

As we get closer to the election, it is interesting the greens are softening their policies.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...sroads-20121230-2c1bz.html?rand=1356872291516

Or are they just taking a leaf out of Gillards book and saying what the electorate want to hear.
Then if or when, they obtain some clout they just do as they wish anyway. The voters have been conned once, it will be interesting to see if they can pull it off again.

As the article states, dropping their ratbag policies will make it harder for their followers to distinguish them from the Labor mob. The more "moderates" will revert to Labor, leaving only the rusted-on rump of Plods. The curtain will then fall on the Greens.

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

It's almost embarrassing to see how many household names a small frozen country create through high tech manufacturing while we run around with shovels digging up the ground, worried about the socialist bogeyman.

I'd certainly agree that Australia focuses far too much on low-tech things where we could be value adding.

In the context of the thread however, it must be said that the Greens have certainly made it harder to value add in this country and pushed things toward the "extract here and process elsewhere" approach. That's the inevitable, and intended, outcome of higher energy costs brought about by opposition to the cheaper means of power generation.

Directly targeting the paper industry did much the same for forestry. We moved from making paper to selling woodchips until that ultimately fell in a heap (as it was always destined to do, a point that both sides understood long ago).

Selling iron ore and coal, so that someone else can make steel, is a bit ridiculous really. Likewise selling bauxite, woodchips, LNG and so on. It's even worse when you realise that Australia is an importer of paper and that we even import steel.

In all of my involvement in these issues over the years, the most consistent theme from the pro-development side is that of wanting to add value to materials extracted in Australia. Make paper rather than selling the wood. Make aluminium rather than selling bauxite. Manufacture things generally.

That's the main point of disagreement with the Greens. Saving some wild areas - fine with me and with most. Social agenda - not an issue in this context. It's the putting roadblocks in the way of processing and manufacturing that is the issue.

 

[white_goodman]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

It certainly was, the Government controlled everything, private enterprise to a degree was allowed but very controlled, no advertising or billboards on shops, everyone had a home, controlled and owned by the state. All land is public but leased where it can be afforded.

What is your idea of Socialist?

read the paper 2 posts above, or are you allergic?

 

[bellenuit]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I don't know if this warrants its own separate thread, but decided to put it here. It reflects, IMO, the support given by some on the Left and the Greens in particular to feely good type policies when those policies often have no rational underlying logic other than being in opposition to anything coming from the West or from business.

Longtime Opponent of Biotech Crops Says Movement is "Anti-Science"

http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/blog/post/longtime-opponent-biotech-crops-says-movement-anti-science

 

[wayneL]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

It certainly was, the Government controlled everything, private enterprise to a degree was allowed but very controlled, no advertising or billboards on shops, everyone had a home, controlled and owned by the state. All land is public but leased where it can be afforded.

What is your idea of Socialist?

Sweden has never been anything but a social democracy in the post war period, never truly socialist and even less so in recent years.

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/3752

 

[DB008]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

There was an article in one of Sydney's newspapers today regarding the Greens policy down in Tasmania and how it contributed to the bushfires - lack of back burning - only 20% carried out. More fuel for the fire.

Now, if this can be believed, it's crazy. These nut jobs should never be allowed into office. If they do (which would be highly unlikely), I would literally sell everything and ship myself out.

 

[Some Dude]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

There was an article in one of Sydney's newspapers today regarding the Greens policy down in Tasmania and how it contributed to the bushfires - lack of back burning - only 20% carried out. More fuel for the fire.

Now, if this can be believed, it's crazy. These nut jobs should never be allowed into office. If they do (which would be highly unlikely), I would literally sell everything and ship myself out.

How strange. According to their website they state their environmental principles which includes:

7. Climate change will increase the intensity and frequency of bushfires; scientifically-based, ecologically appropriate use of fire is an important means to protect biodiversity and manage habitat effectively.

...

13. Rigorous evidence based bushfire research that considers the use of fire, and best environmental and fire risk minimization in building practices.

14. An effective and sustainable strategy for fuel-reduction management that will protect biodiversity and moderate the effects of wildfire for the protection of people and assets, developed in consultation with experts, custodians and land managers.

I wonder where the paper got their information from?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

There was an article in one of Sydney's newspapers today regarding the Greens policy down in Tasmania and how it contributed to the bushfires - lack of back burning - only 20% carried out. More fuel for the fire.

Now, if this can be believed, it's crazy. These nut jobs should never be allowed into office. If they do (which would be highly unlikely), I would literally sell everything and ship myself out.

+1

gg

 

[MrBurns]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

There was an article in one of Sydney's newspapers today regarding the Greens policy down in Tasmania and how it contributed to the bushfires - lack of back burning - only 20% carried out. More fuel for the fire.

Now, if this can be believed, it's crazy. These nut jobs should never be allowed into office. If they do (which would be highly unlikely), I would literally sell everything and ship myself out.

I saw a Facebook post recently where a guy was searching through the rubble of his house for photos of his family that died in a bushfire after the Greens denied the locals the right to clear their land, can't find it now but it must have been from Black Saturday. Very emotive and may have been contrived but it's not hard to imagine that this could really be the conseqences of their actions.

 

[Some Dude]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I saw a Facebook post recently where a guy was searching through the rubble of his house for photos of his family that died in a bushfire after the Greens denied the locals the right to clear their land, can't find it now but it must have been from Black Saturday. Very emotive and may have been contrived but it's not hard to imagine that this could really be the conseqences of their actions.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the greens might be feeling like Abbott and his supporters at the moment with regard to politically charged emotive attacks.

 

[MrBurns]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

One could be forgiven for thinking that the greens might be feeling like Abbott and his supporters at the moment with regard to politically charged emotive attacks.

You dont think they deserve it ?
They don't even try to hide their dangerous radical nature now, they're nuts and proud of it.

Greens back anti-coal activist after media hoax

Greens leader Christine Milne has backed an anti-coal activist whose actions temporarily wiped more than $300 million from the value of Whitehaven Coal, arguing it was part of a "long and proud history" of civil disobedience.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-09/greens-back-anti-coal-activist-after-media-hoax/4458272

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I saw a Facebook post recently where a guy was searching through the rubble of his house for photos of his family that died in a bushfire after the Greens denied the locals the right to clear their land, can't find it now but it must have been from Black Saturday. Very emotive and may have been contrived but it's not hard to imagine that this could really be the conseqences of their actions.

The true Greens like myself and Roger Scruton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Scruton

Believe that it is each and every person's responsibility to look after the environment, as owners of property.

The Watermelon Greens who control the party in Australia believe this should be achieved by government control, property governance devolved to bogan crusties and destabilisation of the sharemarket, as occurred with the Whitehaven attempt recently.

gg

 

[Some Dude]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

You dont think they deserve it ?

I don't think they deserved to be accused of being responsible for people's houses burning down because they opposed back burning when their website very plainly states that they support it.