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The Australian Greens party

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole cyclical thing with capitalism and free market society but I think the boom and bust is actually supposed to happen. Some crashes and booms are bigger than others.

Personally, I can't think of any better plan but the far left side of centre is NOT it.

Not until we no longer require locks on doors.

Or, until the human race is united in an effort against something to save our entire existence.

Quote Sun Zu 10.14.3

"An army on the move without engagement,that fails to see the folly of the soft camp followers will expire, before it finds a harbour."

gg
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment here ...

What i dont agree with is people being treated unequally or with disdain due to there religous beliefs. Something i feel was done in this thread...



Yes .. your right ... we might all have to give upsomething as trivial as our Iphone 4's so the people that are sleeping on park benches in urban areas all around australia ... can be provided with proper shelter and the support that they as Australians deserve ... makes me want to puke too.

Yes, life is good ... in most of this country. But for example i also believe the poverty, and historically poor lack of support of indigenous communities in parts of Australia is a disgrace, and something that i feel a little ashamed of as an Australian. I believe we can improve this, and i believe it can be achieved through some form of socialism. Thats my opinion, if you have a different opinion ... thats cool.

I agree with RandR. We have a pretty good society, sure, but it could be better. We're not going to move forward as a society (morally) until we figure out how to solve the hopelessness and desperation that characterises our indigenous communities and lower income earners.

We just need to keep on chipping away/trying new things until we find something that works.

Regards,
Ed
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

But how would the people sleeping on park benches be able to access their supplies.

This needs more working.

gg

I respect your views and from reading this forum i have noticed you do make a lot of very good posts, quite a few of which i have been able to learn/pick up a few things from.

But, if you can forgive me for believing in ideals ... i'll forgive you for trivializing them.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Animal Farm economics does not work as natural selection is a competitive process.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

So, you're well on the left side of centre still, right?

Like, opposite to the stock market?

:confused:

Why would a democratic socialist society be opposed to the idea of free trade ? Or be opposed to an equity market ?

Name me one democratic socialist society that is, then you would be making an actual point .... rather then fishing ....

Or, until the human race is united in an effort against something to save our entire existence.

Do you not think we are ? Is not our entire existence not jeopardised by the precarious nature we have placed ourselves in, in terms of sustainability of food production/and its methods, and sustainability of the energy consumption that has fed the rampant population growth in the past century or two ?

What do you see foresee is more likely looking into the next century ?

1. - technological innovation to solve all our problems ?
2. - Or people uniting and resolving to work for a common goal to work around these problems ?

.. or do you foresee some old fashioned simple 'deflation' of the human population ?
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Why would a democratic socialist society be opposed to the idea of free trade ? Or be opposed to an equity market ?

Name me one democratic socialist society that is, then you would be making an actual point .... rather then fishing ....

Not sure what this means? :confused:

Do you not think we are ? Is not our entire existence not jeopardised by the precarious nature we have placed ourselves in, in terms of sustainability of food production/and its methods, and sustainability of the energy consumption that has fed the rampant population growth in the past century or two ?

What do you see foresee is more likely looking into the next century ?

1. - technological innovation to solve all our problems ?
2. - Or people uniting and resolving to work for a common goal to work around these problems ?

.. or do you foresee some old fashioned simple 'deflation' of the human population ?
The planet (and then Universe) will find a way eventually. Think bigger picture.

What will develop is what will develop in the next 100 billion years or so.

Yes, we should hold on for a few more days...

Live life, be happy.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Talking about how "communism" failed in Russia, have a look at the home of "capitalism", the US is not travelling all that well.

Last time I checked, capitalism let companies fail. Does this sound like the US to you?
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Last time I checked, capitalism let companies fail. Does this sound like the US to you?

Your correct. The US isnt a society that practices capitalism, not at the present time anyway, when corporate america is surviving off the generosity of american taxpayers .... bailed out by taxpayer money that ... doesnt actually exist.

Sounds more like state capitalism then real capitalism to me. Leninism and the Bolshevik revolution introduced state capitalism to the world, funny how times change and Uncle Sam goes down the same path.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Why do i think they'd make the perfect neighbour ? simple ... my personal experience is that people that are practicing muslims tend to be fairly quiet, and respectful. My theory on why a communist would make a perfect neighbour, is again .. simple ... because you'd think anyone who preaches communism would be pretty keen to help out a neighbour when in need, and maybe share some wealth... :p
Thanks for responding to my questions RandR.
Practising muslims are quiet and respectful? No doubt many are but so are many Christians. So are many atheists. Can't see that quietness and respectfulness has anything to do with religion.

You think communists are going to be likely to "maybe share some wealth". I've never seen willingness to care or assist others as being offered more by any particular political ideology. Most people living in communist regimes do so because they have little choice. Do you really think most North Koreans are happy to be starving so their dear leaders can pour money into nuclear arms?

I understand your idealistic stance. And yes, of course capitalism is less than perfect.
But it's oh so easy from your comfortable situation here in Australia to idealise what you think would be the great answer of communism. Not so sure you'd still feel that way after a few years of living with it.

The advantages i see in marxism are .. once again ... simple ... a classless society. (social class to me is disgusting)
I'm trying to be reasonable here, polite even. So you think everyone is born equal?
Australia is overall a pretty egalitarian society. Whether we adequately care for the poor and disadvantaged is a subject for a whole other thread.

A society where the poor are lifted up, and the only society where true unadultered democracy could ever be achieved. A society that would truly, be of the people, and for the people. Tell me why in a country as great as ours, we allow so many people to live in destitution, people to become homeless and live in poverty ?
The reasons people become homeless and/or live in poverty are many but are not especially the result of a political system.

It has been shown over and over again that if you gave every member of a society an equal amount of money, at the end of a given period of time, say 20 years, the same small percentage of people will end up controlling the majority of the wealth.

It goes back to your point about a 'classless society'. Because we all have such different levels of ability, this will never happen. Some people will always make the most of opportunity and others will waste it.

In the sort of society you seem to be advocating, the people who take responsibility for ensuring they have a decent life would be constantly handing out what they have earned to prop up those who can't be bothered.

This already happens to some extent.

If you really had pure capitalism happening, we'd wipe the welfare state and everyone would have to sink or swim on their own capacity to take responsibility for themselves.

But in a thread titled about a political party in Australia, i would expect to see some good, open debate about actual policy of the party. Not open slather and bigotry directed at people according to the religious idols, or political ideals. Which to my mind is disgusting and a little bit more then just insulting ... and why ive probably been a little bit more provocative in my responses. If any of my posts have seemed a touch (angsty) i apologise.

I can never quite understand why the Left sees any criticism of their ideals as 'bigotry', never just a different view.

Thanks, however, for stimulating some discussion.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Yes .. your right ... we might all have to give upsomething as trivial as our Iphone 4's so the people that are sleeping on park benches in urban areas all around australia ... can be provided with proper shelter and the support that they as Australians deserve ... makes me want to puke too.

I would love if your ideals would work in the real world. But there are a million factors that come into play.

Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba (probably tried the hardest at the start) all tried to hold to the ideals but none were pure Marxian societies. Just as the US is not a "pure" capitalist society, in fact they are far from it. And as for Australia we are far from it. In fact we are heavily influenced by socialist/Marxian ideas already. In the end Marxian ideas requires the sacrifice of most freedoms to make life 'fair' for everyone. And greed is part of any society regardless of ideals. Cuba tried to follow as close as they could (at the start) and failed miserably. Soviet Union, China, North Korea all devolved into totalitarian societies and through out tried to enforce Marxism by violent (often lethal) means on their own people.
All we hear about capitalism is greed; selfishness and dog eat dog lifestyle. It’s always oversimplified to be shown in a negative light by socialists. Probably the same way socialists are treated as well:D
Greed will always be a part of every society

Australia imo is socialist enough. You want lack of greed and selfishness, then you only have to look to the goodwill of the people of QLD and the rest of Australia who donated and volunteered their time to help others. My experience has been if you need help in this country and ask, people jump over themselves to lend a hand. We have a heavy mix of socialism and capitalism and I don't like leaning to hard either way. Yes I do lean to the right in views but lean much more to the left when dealing with people in everyday life. But the last thing I want is a Green agenda.

Yes, life is good ... in most of this country. But for example i also believe the poverty, and historically poor lack of support of indigenous communities in parts of Australia is a disgrace, and something that i feel a little ashamed of as an Australian. I believe we can improve this, and i believe it can be achieved through some form of socialism. Thats my opinion, if you have a different opinion ... thats cool.

I'm indigenous of another country which has similar problems. Handouts destroyed us, thinking what we needed was more handouts destroyed us more. Until the people decide to help themselves, then they will stay where they are no matter how much money is thrown at them.
But change is happening. There are strong leaders in the Aboriginal community that will pave the way. There is a problem with the remoteness of the communities’ imo and the ease of staying in the rut they are in. But they have more opportunities now then ever before. While education is the key (and they actually received a payment if the went to school everyday) problems still exist with the indigenous communities mindset. The government is trying, business is trying, but it will take years for there to be any flow on effects. There is not an instant solution to this problem. They tried that already by giving them houses, cars, money, medical, education. It is a much more complex problem.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Great post moXJO.

agreed, fantastic and well considered response moXJO.

Julia ...

You understand my comments about the virtues of a muslim and or communist neighbour were largely tongue in cheek yeah ? I felt that someone needed to take a stand for Islam and communists in this thread because they were being vilified by previous posters. Which i found to be a little off putting.

But it's oh so easy from your comfortable situation here in Australia to idealise what you think would be the great answer of communism. Not so sure you'd still feel that way after a few years of living with it.

You dont seem to be comprehending what I am advocating ... I am not a communist, i do not advocate communism, and i certainly do not advocate the style of communism that has been practiced in the USSR, China, North Korea.

I am an advocate for democratic socialism, and marxist theory. If your having trouble distinguishing the two from communism, you should probably do some research, because the two are quite contrary to each other.

In case you ask, what sort of political organisation would i consider to be democratic socialists ... heres an example from the 2007 federal election ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Online

Just lastly, funnily enough I do not consider myself as a 'leftist'. Because I do not believe anybody should make a decision on any political discourse based on which side of a fence they stand on, I think anyone that comes to a decision based upon whether they consider themselves to be 'left' or 'right' is a moron.

I believe in the ability of informed choices, there are policies i like from the liberals, policies of labour, and policies from the greens that I do like and support there different stances on. In fact i think if i was to reflect upon my votes in previous elections I have probably voted liberal more then anything else ;)
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

RandR,

Just going back on something you said earlier, that you believe in the power of equality.

What does equality mean to you?
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I felt that someone needed to take a stand for Islam and communists in this thread because they were being vilified by previous posters.
A critical opinion about an ideology is what anyone has the right to express on this forum. That doesn't necessarily constitute vilification. Again, we have the pejorative language. "Bigotry" earlier.

In case you ask, what sort of political organisation would i consider to be democratic socialists ... heres an example from the 2007 federal election ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Online
From the link you provided:

Senator Online (Internet Voting Bills/Issues) (abr. SOL) is a registered Australian political party that contested the 2007 Federal election. In the five states the party contested, it received on average 0.06% of the vote (or roughly 6 votes for every 10,000 cast) with the greatest success in Victoria where it received 0.09% of the vote (or roughly 9 votes for every 10,000 cast).

Senator Online does not have any policies. Instead it has pledged to conduct an online poll for every bill that passes before the Senate. Anyone on the Australian electoral roll who is not a member of another political party would be allowed to register to vote in these polls and will be allowed one vote per bill. The senators would then be required to vote in accordance with the clear majority (70% and more than 100,000 votes). If there is no clear majority the senators will abstain from voting.
Fantastic. About as realistic as the rest of your ideas.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Again, we have the pejorative language. "Bigotry" earlier

Playing the language police woman once again Julia! Branding any descriptive term you don't like as pejorative doesn't negate it's appropriateness given the views expressed by some in these threads.

If someone demonstrates a complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own then why is that not bigotry? You're not going to change the views or opinions of bigots by indulging their intolerance with kind words. Wake up, take the red pill and join the real world.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

A critical opinion about an ideology is what anyone has the right to express on this forum. That doesn't necessarily constitute vilification. Again, we have the pejorative language. "Bigotry" earlier.

bahahaha, Julia ... are you suggesting the below qoute to not be bigoted ? Do you think after reading the quote my use of the term, bigotry, was incorrect ? If it was i apologise unreservedly.

The Greens, who appear to be alingned with communism,
Between the Greens and Islam I would hate to see what this world of ours will be like in 20 or 30 years time.

From the link you provided:


Fantastic. About as realistic as the rest of your ideas.

Well, yes, it is realistic because it is and they are real. To be honest i dont really care what you feel for my ideas ... because they are mine, just as you have yours that would probably seem just as silly to someone else.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I read that blog by Senator Bernardi and he brought up some good points, Senator Brown does seem like a hypocrite. Not really surprising considering he is after all, a politician.

Obvious point but apparently only Greens and Labor politicians can be hypocrites, the wrecker is as pure of the snow..........for gods sake man get with the program

BTW like the tone of your posts 90% of which you will have to appreciate will go over the top of most of the Sarah Palin groupies heads here.
 
Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

RandR,

Just going back on something you said earlier, that you believe in the power of equality.

What does equality mean to you?

May I have an answer to this question please?
 
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