The Australian Greens party

[Julia]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Jeez I hope they don't halt Uranium mining. They could not be that thick.

Be quite assured that they can.

Interesting segment on Insiders (ABC) today including how they currently compare vote wise to the Democrats at their peak.

Can you give a summary for those of us who missed it?

There are thousands of voters who voted for the Greens who would no have idea what these people stand for apart from the elimination of uranium and coal mining.

They voted in this manner purely because they were brainwashed into thinking the two major parties were on the nose. So it was purely a protest vote. Their percentage of votes is equivalent to the Democrats back in the 80's and 90's.

I have two friends who voted for the Greens. When I mentioned to them some of the Greens polocies and their beliefs, they were dumbfounded.

Why in the hell the Greens were not exposed before and during the election campaign I will never know.

Very simple, noco. No journalist has taken the trouble to examine the Greens' policies and costings (if any), whilst they have dissected all policies and costings of the two main parties in forensic detail.
The so called professional journalists have hugely let us down in this respect.

So the Greens have joyfully embraced all those protest votes from the people who couldn't be bothered to look beyond their noses.

 

[noco]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Be prepared for electricity charges to increase with the influence of the Greens on Labor. Check out the cost of renewable energy from wind farms compared to coal fired power.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai..._feel_is_another_green_promise_no_one_costed/

 

[Mofra]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Very simple, noco. No journalist has taken the trouble to examine the Greens' policies and costings (if any), whilst they have dissected all policies and costings of the two main parties in forensic detail.
The so called professional journalists have hugely let us down in this respect.

There was one article in the Hun during the campaign with estimates - surprisingly it wasn't a major attack on the party given the paper's right-wing leanings.
It wasn't compared to the major parties as it was earlier in the campaign and neither of the majors had fully revealed their policies (nor had them costed) at that stage.
I don't believe it has been through treasury either.

 

[Mofra]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Their taxation policy is interesting - they are certainly anti-GST which is one of the few major achievements of the Howard government IMO

Taxation

22.reduce inequities in the current personal tax system by:
reducing tax breaks for high income earners;
removing Fringe Benefits Tax concessions which promote increased use of motor vehicles;
removing the concessional arrangements for Capital Gains Tax;
only allowing losses from an investment to be offset against income from the same investment;
abolishing the 30% Private Health Insurance Rebate in order to increase funding for public hospitals;
taxing family trusts in the same way as companies;
eliminating high rates of effective marginal taxation for those on welfare benefits; and
introduce a new top marginal tax rate of 50 per cent on incomes of $1 million or over.
23.introduce an estate tax with full provisions to protect the family farm, the family home and small business with a threshold of $5 million as indexed from the year 2010.
24.conduct an inquiry with a view to implementing changes to the tax system that address the negative impacts of the GST on:
income distribution;
environmental sustainability; and
business administration costs.
25.oppose any increase or extension to the GST.
26.implement a gradual and long term shift in the tax system from work based taxes to taxes on natural resources and pollution including:
a carbon tax levied on generators of mains-supplied electricity or gas
a national carbon trading scheme; and
other ecological taxes and charges at a level sufficient enough that their prices reflect the full environmental cost of their production, use or disposal.


27.introduce a system of minimum personal and corporate tax legislation to reduce the opportunities for individuals and companies to use loopholes to minimise their tax obligations.
28.conduct a full review of the superannuation system with the aim of reducing its complexity and establishing progressive rates of superannuation taxation.
29.return the company tax rate to 33% and broaden the company tax base by reducing tax concessions.
30.limit tax deductibility for salaries & salary-related expenses for any individual employee to $1million per year.
31.end subsidies and tax concessions to environmentally harmful industries.

 

[Mofra]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

They are.

http://greens.org.au/policies/climate-change-and-energy/nuclear

Looks like they missed Thorium mining in their policy. Whoopsies.
Futurists would consider uranium "old news"

 

[drsmith]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Their taxation policy is interesting - they are certainly anti-GST which is one of the few major achievements of the Howard government IMO

I attempted to address the individual point's of the Greens's tax policy this afternoon but something went cactus.

In summery, they don't want to "implement a gradual and long term shift in the tax system from work based taxes to taxes on natural resources and pollution", but rather increase taxes by raising new environmental taxes and increasing income and corportate taxation.

Their measures are riddled with inconsistencies such as simplifying taxation on superannuation, but at the same time introducing progressive tax scales for superannuation contributions. They regard the GST as too regressive and don't understand that to "eliminate high rates of effective marginal taxation for those on welfare benefits", you have to remove effective means testing of these benefits. They have also failed to articulate the impact of "other ecological taxes and charges at a level sufficient enough that their prices reflect the full environmental cost of their production, use or disposal".

There's a lot of socialist nonsense in there.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I haven't unlike you guys gone in to the ins and outs of Green policy.

I did engage in cleaning up one of our creeks 2 years ago, and there were very many green people there and they seemed like savvy folk with reasonable arguments.

I am very interested in seeing these views put to the fore in the next parliament.

Lets face it, Mr. and Mrs. Shopping Trolley are 40% Bogan, 40% Committed voters and 20% Pure idiots.

gg

 

[drsmith]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

A carbon tax in the context of not increasing tax or redistributing wealth through tax would be an interesting challenge for the Greens.

Have they, for example, considered replacing the GST with a carbon tax ?

 

[wayneL]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Lets face it, Mr. and Mrs. Shopping Trolley are 40% Bogan, 40% Committed voters and 20% Pure idiots.

gg

GG I think you have the proportions seriously messed up there. In research for my thesis on this very topic I have found the proportions entirely different, particularly with regards to the third component.

Will wait for peer review before releasing my findings however.

 

[Calliope]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

The scariest statement that Gillard has made in trying to win over the Independents, is that the Labor party can work better with the Green dominated Senate.

 

[noco]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

The scariest statement that Gillard has made in trying to win over the Independents, is that the Labor party can work better with the Green dominated Senate.

Yes the Greens and Labor are of one colour ie. green outside and red inside. They are too closely associated for my liking.

Senator Cory Bernardi describes them as a party with a Marxist heart and enviromental skin.

 

[Mofra]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

GG I think you have the proportions seriously messed up there. In research for my thesis on this very topic I have found the proportions entirely different, particularly with regards to the third component.

Will wait for peer review before releasing my findings however.

I think you'd have most of the site lining up to read it Wayne, regardless of political leaning.

 

[Julia]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

I think you'd have most of the site lining up to read it Wayne, regardless of political leaning.

I agree. And I'd go so far as to suggest 99% of ASF members would be more than happy to forgo the peer review process in this instance.

 

[chrisalex]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

This could be a good outcome if the ALP and the Greens get to 'govern' for the next term. Then Mr. and Mrs. shopping trolley can see just what hell they have unleashed upon themselves. This may awaken a lot of fence sitters.
Though I really cannot see it lasting three years.

 

[noco]

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Just watched AM Agenda on sky News where Bob Katter quoted Al Gore as being the Patron of the Greem movement world wide.

 

[wayneL]

Greens destroying business

I mentioned this in the climate thread; this story is all over the blogosphere, but I'm lead to believe it is being ignored by the MSM in WA.

Tyranny: How to destroy a business with environmental red tape

What sort of country allows this to happen. Either allow it or disallow it, but slowly asphyxiating a family business to death with arbitrary red tape is just diabolical bureaucratic bullying IMO

Excerpt:

Did you know in Australia it’s possible to ruin a business if you don’t like the way it smells? This is a heartbreaking story ”” that a government could effectively ruin a family by slowly strangling them in red tape, and that they would have apparently no protection from the courts or the ombudsman. It eats away at our sense of justice. Can we speak freely? Are we all treated equally under the law, or are some laws only enforced according to a capricious whim?

This is the price we pay for vague laws where business people can run ventures, do everything to the letter of the law, with best-practice procedures, winning customers and contracts, yet go broke despite all that because of onerous, impossible-to-meet conditions, that are unmeasurable, and change suddenly, with the added bonus of inordinately long delays. At the moment, Janet and Matts farm, Narrogin Beef Producers, lies empty, unstocked, while debts accrue by the minute.
This is also a story of sovereign risk. Investors in Australian industry beware.

Unused equipment that cost hundred of thousands of dollars lies idle.
How can any business survive the need to get two-yearly licenses which take more than 12 months to arrange; where after four years of planning and preparation, capacity can be suddenly halved without warning; where an appeals process can take 18 months and when the original capacity is finally restored, not only are many new stipulations added, but the expiry date is not extended. After 30 months of a grinding process, the farmer is only left with 6 months before the amended license expires and no way to take out loans based on such an uncertain future.
If the government were a private business paid to arrange licenses, and expected to be evidence based and to respond in a reasonable time, then they would have no customers. Indeed, they could be sued.
Matt and Janet were told their license would be a formality, and they took out loans and contracts for water and grain in advance. Their input costs last year added up to around $10 million dollars. When the capacity was halved there was no way under the laws of biology and commerce that they could bring in the cash flow to meet those costs. When they appealed, they was no timeframe, no indication it would take 18 months to be resolved, so they took out loans, bore the costs, the interest, and paid for water they did not use, and grain no cow would eat. Their money was effectively squandered by the unpredictable rulings of the state government.

 

[explod]

Re: Greens destroying business

Yep, on the surface it all sounds a bit rough to me.

And we certainly need the food.

 

[ghotib]

Re: Greens destroying business

I mentioned this in the climate thread; this story is all over the blogosphere, but I'm lead to believe it is being ignored by the MSM in WA.

Tyranny: How to destroy a business with environmental red tape

What sort of country allows this to happen. Either allow it or disallow it, but slowly asphyxiating a family business to death with arbitrary red tape is just diabolical bureaucratic bullying IMO

Excerpt:

I saw this on Watts and followed it up as far as I could. As you say, there's not much press on it, but the minister's determination and some of the departmental documents are available. I didn't find enough there to form an opinion about the rights or wrongs of the feedlot itself or the bank's actions. I also couldn't find anything about the piggery.

The other thing I can't find is any reason for your thread title. Are you suggesting that the Greens are responsible for the actions of the WA bureaucracy? Seems unlikely.

DISCLOSURE: In 1974 I was bookkeeper for an agricultural enterprise that included a feedlot property which I visited a couple of times.

Ghoti

 

[alphaman]

Re: Greens destroying business

I don't know, blaming bureaucracy and dodgy lawyers on the Greens?

 

[wayneL]

Re: Greens destroying business

Clarification:

Greens does not refer to "The Greens" the political party. Perhaps I should have used the term "greenies"?