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The Abbott Government

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Whiskers said:
No delusion, or "even if"... it was clear that abbott was aware of what was happening. That's all that's matters.

How would it look if Rudd had said no, don't lease another house?

He would have been open to accusations of vindictiveness, interfering in normal departmental decision making to harm and inconvenience Abbott.
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Then prove that Abbott agreed to this lease when Rudd was still in government or it will be assumed you made it up. Spin won't cut the mustard either.
 
Whiskers said:
But you think that's wasteful... try more like $260,000 a month the qld government is paying for vacant offices after Newman (LNP) put the razor through the public service.http://news.domain.com.au/domain/go...a-month-for-empty-offices-20130826-2skfp.html
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And by sacking the 4000 odd people from the public service saved QLD state payroll how much again? :eek:

These leases were put in place by the previous government which was who again? :banghead:

More than one side to a story Whiskers. :xyxthumbs
 
Watching Bill Shorten grovelling to the Indonesians makes you want to throw up, he's not even very good at it, just a crawling little worm.:bad:
 
Whiskers said:
Yeah, that's the thrust of my earlier point.

Ordinarily a government wouldn't go making a BIG noise about it unless they were particularly p!ssed off over something... or found it a useful lever to use against you for something.

The inconvenient truth though is that much of the Indo government, present and future seems more partial to Labor than Lib. That's the problem I've recognised from the start... Abbott and his style just isn't getting along very well with them.

I'm thinking a bit of ideological conflict going back to when Howard accepted asylum seekers from West Papua, the last time they withdrew their ambassador and maybe still a bit of nose out of joint over East Timor.
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You mentioned trade relations earlier? Australia and Indo are still negotiating terms on the bilateral FTA.

Australia is currently engaged in nine FTA negotiations - five bilateral FTA negotiations: China, Japan, Korea, India and Indonesia; and four plurilateral FTA negotiations: the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP), the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), the Pacific Trade and Economic Agreement (PACER Plus), and the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (RCEP).
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http://www.dfat.gov.au/fta/

Indonesia is a significant economic and regional partner for Australia. Two-way trade in goods and services reached $14.6 billion in 2012.

Maybe the "spying" thing is a dose of sabre rattling to improve their standing? I repeat ... Indo's do not like to lose face and for their Foreign Minister to say that Indo is not spying on Australia is a REDONKOLOUS statement !!

Also to lay the blame at Howard's feet is another REDONKOLOUS statement. Politics I think they call it ! :2twocents
 
trainspotter said:
And by sacking the 4000 odd people from the public service saved QLD state payroll how much again? :eek:

These leases were put in place by the previous government which was who again? :banghead:

More than one side to a story Whiskers. :xyxthumbs
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Not a matter of how many (political) sides, but the full down-the-line consequences from a particular decision... the wider sociological and economic effects and who actually wears the cost in the end.

I had no problems with trimming some of the fat from the Bligh (Labor) public service. It did get quite obese and misdirected. As for the number... and whether a restructure or redeployment of more of the human resources was a better option is the still open question.

The immediate consequence was saving 4000 wages from the Qld public service payroll BUT just transferring them on the national, Aus government unemployed payroll.

You see how one can shift at least some of the cost onto someone else. Do you think Newman (or any state government) would sack staff so willingly if they had to pick up the dole payments themselves? Similar story with state payroll taxes and royalties are used to manipulate fed gov GST apportionment back to states.

The problem Abbott is facing now. He has to balance his staff cuts with the full financial and wider economic impact. He was counting on saving heaps from staff cuts to spend elsewhere, BUT, like the turn back and buy back the boats policy, he seems to have misjudged this pretty badly too.

They did a head count of the number of bums they would have to sack to save $x in their budget. The problem is that it seems he misread the previous budget papers, that Labor was enforcing the efficiency dividend policy (continuing on from Howard and Costello) pretty rigidly. The department heads were given a certain amount of money and were responsible for finding the efficiencies in their departments, with forced redundancies a last resort, but not yet resorted to.

The efficiency dividend, an annual funding reduction for Commonwealth government agencies, has been in place for 25 years. While it is by no means the only mechanism by which the government seeks efficiencies in its operations, the efficiency dividend is ‘the most readily acknowledged across-the-board budget mechanism for promoting improvements in agencies’ efficiency’.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam..._Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/EfficiencyDividend​

You might have heard about Abbott putting his big public service staff cuts on hold for the moment because there does not seem to be that many spare staff in many departments. (The climate change bureaucracy being an exception) Security and border protection in particular have expressed concerns of a severe drop in capability if there are staff cuts.

But getting back to the lease point, that's the responsibility that you have to wear if you decide to sack as opposed to restructure or redeploy the staff. After all, the contracts were in place... the ability to get out of the contract or the cost of paying them out should be part of the cost benefit of the exercise.
 
sails said:
Then prove that Abbott agreed to this lease when Rudd was still in government or it will be assumed you made it up. Spin won't cut the mustard either.
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If you go back to my earlier post, I didn't say he agreed to the lease... I said he could have influenced them to wait until after the election, tell them straight out that he wasn't intending to stay there if he won.

MrBurns said:
Watching Bill Shorten grovelling to the Indonesians makes you want to throw up, he's not even very good at it, just a crawling little worm.:bad:
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Well, maybe it's just me... but politicians don't get me all coiled up emotionally to "want to throw up".

I've previously explained, why I don't respect him, why most of his own grass roots and why most voters don't particularly like him. But, while critical of Abbott for a bit of a low ethical radar re Sri linka... I trust Shorten less for the sorts of people and the type of deals he would do.

trainspotter said:
You mentioned trade relations earlier? Australia and Indo are still negotiating terms on the bilateral FTA.



http://www.dfat.gov.au/fta/

Indonesia is a significant economic and regional partner for Australia. Two-way trade in goods and services reached $14.6 billion in 2012.

Maybe the "spying" thing is a dose of sabre rattling to improve their standing? I repeat ... Indo's do not like to lose face and for their Foreign Minister to say that Indo is not spying on Australia is a REDONKOLOUS statement !!

Also to lay the blame at Howard's feet is another REDONKOLOUS statement. Politics I think they call it ! :2twocents
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Not laying the blame at Howard feet... just pointing out that, Indo has closer affinity to Labor than Lib, and that Howard tested their tolerance (rightly so over Timor) before Abbott... hence my point about the legacy of earlier politics that Abbott seems to have underestimated before 'testing' them again.

Labor seemed to have a better repour and knew how far they could push Indo without sacrificing trade too much... well at least until Gillard lost the plot.
 
drsmith said:
Indonesia's political leaders all the way to SBY tweet like teenagers throwing a tanty while the true statesman just gets on with the job.

By now they'll realise that Tony Abbott will be no pushover.
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The Indonesians view this sort of thing differently.
Mr Abbott doesn't need to be a pushover. He could, however, imo have handled this more diplomatically rather than fanning the flames when he needs their co-operation.
 
Julia said:
The Indonesians view this sort of thing differently.
Mr Abbott doesn't need to be a pushover. He could, however, imo have handled this more diplomatically rather than fanning the flames when he needs their co-operation.
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He can't really put it "more diplomatically" in the hope there are no further revelations.

I saw another article today where Indonesia allegedly spied on our political leaders in 2004. Who knows what else has gone on, from both sides.

It's a two way street and a constructive relationship between our two countries has positive benefits for both. That's an important point TA was making. The question for Indonesia's leaders ultimately is how that weighs up against their domestic politics. TA in my view is showing great strength in largely putting domestic politics aside on this particular issue.
 
drsmith said:
He can't really put it "more diplomatically" in the hope there are no further revelations.

I saw another article today where Indonesia allegedly spied on our political leaders in 2004. Who knows what else has gone on, from both sides.

It's a two way street and a constructive relationship between our two countries has positive benefits for both. That's an important point TA was making. The question for Indonesia's leaders ultimately is how that weighs up against their domestic politics. TA in my view is showing great strength in largely putting domestic politics aside on this particular issue.
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Is he?

Isn't it his domestic politics, the hard line against Indonesia to 'turn back' and 'buy' old fishing boats and election policy to use Indonesian 'help' to spy on smugglers and where they source their boats etc... and Indonesia publically telling him to p!ss off, that was the main fuel on the strained relations that he is refusing to back down on?

He is on the weak end of this relationship with, on balance much more to loose for the Aus economy.

Whereas Indonesia has little to loose economically and plenty of pride to gain by taking this stand.

What are the wider regional security, cooperation and trade ramifications now if we are 'offside' with our closest neighbour?

There are plenty of regional experts suggesting this could go on until their election... and likely worsen after that with expected more hard-liners coming to office.

Abbott could have made a prompt apology saying he didn't know their president was being phone tapped, similar to Obama with Merkyl. That wouldn't harm or disclose any security stuff, but would help them save face.

But, maybe he knows he cannot smooth over all that has actually gone on between them, that which we are not being told about yet.
 
This spying business is a storm in a teacup that will soon blow over.

We want trade with Indonesia (but could get by OK without it).
They want trade with us. They also want the money we throw at them in foreign aid.

After a tense month or two things will return to business as usual.
The media will be most disappointed to lose a relatively trivial issue to blow out of all proportion.
 
Anyone considered in July next year that there is a Presidential election to replace Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono as he is constitutionally barred for running for a third term? The Demokrat Party is in sharp decline amongst the voters as they do not have a recognised identity apart from SBY. This sabre rattling will be doing his party no end of good in the polls.

Indonesia will be a good place to stay away from in early July methinks as the PDIP crank up the volume for their man ! :2twocents
 
drsmith said:
He can't really put it "more diplomatically" in the hope there are no further revelations.
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A very good point. I wouldn't trust the ABC/Guardian. They are probably holding back some revelations in the hope that whatever excuse/apology Abbott might give, the new revelations that they have will in someway contradict what he says and sour the relationship even further.

Not knowing what may be forthcoming, he has to be very careful. Although his stance may be seen as intransigent in the short term, in a way it does cover him somewhat against what else may be revealed. I still think he could have been a bit more diplomatic.

If Indonesia wants to blow this out of all proportion for domestic reasons then it is obvious that they were intent on doing that anyway and this is the "issue" they decided to latch on to.
 
IFocus said:
LOL Orr seems no one noticed...........

- - - Updated - - -

The Coalition's Big Lie





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/hetherington-the-coalitions-big-lie/5098544
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I just assumed I was on everyones 'ignore list'

I was going to put up the images as a reply to the last sentence on one of 'Julia's ' posts a page or so back..." you can ultimately do more by not alienating people".... Well; and sometimes you can't.... I have very little truck with moral relativists. Go now and shake the hand that has just dashed-out the brains of a few infants. And console yourself... 'I've done it for good purpose'
 
Ermmmm ... the larger photo is TA clearly NOT shaking hands whilst the smaller one is of Alexander Downer trying to shake hands? Not disagreeing with you on the Sri Lankan President ruling with an iron fist during the power struggle with the Tamil Tigers either BUT

At the height of their power, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) ran vast swathes of Tamil-dominated northern and eastern Sri Lanka as a virtual mini-state. But they had also turned a struggle for the rights of the island’s Hindu and Christian Tamils into a terrorist campaign involving suicide bombers and child soldiers ”” assassinating anyone who stood in their way, including thousands of moderate Tamils, a Sri Lankan president and, in 1991, former Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi.

But after a long stalemate, the Sri Lankan government of President Mahinda Rajapaksa took the war to the Tigers with unprecedented ruthlessness and single-mindedness.

As the scorched-earth campaign entered its final stages in 2009, it cost tens of thousands of lives ”” a U.N. report called for an investigation into war crimes by both sides, accusing the Tigers of using civilians as human shields and the Sri Lankan military of indiscriminate shelling and denying civilians access to humanitarian aid.
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http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...2_1_liberation-tigers-tamil-eelam-tamil-tiger

It would appear it is not a dictatorship yet but it is certainly looking like it is heading that way sooner rather than later IMO :2twocents

The economy is one of Asia’s fastest growing, and tourism is booming. But three years after the war ended, human rights groups and opposition leaders warn that the country is descending toward dictatorship, with dissent brutally crushed, the media cowed and the minority Tamils, whose insurrection caused the war in the first place, still treated like second-class citizens.
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Julia said:
The Indonesians view this sort of thing differently.
Mr Abbott doesn't need to be a pushover. He could, however, imo have handled this more diplomatically rather than fanning the flames when he needs their co-operation.
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He is trying to be more diplomatic now, but the damage is done.
 
When you look at the calibre and politics of those who think Australia should grovel to Indonesia, then Abbott must be on the right track...ABC commentators, Fairfax commentators, the Greens and now the biggest joke of all, Bob Katter. Even the Opposition (except Shorten) aren't naive enough to ask for an apology.

Mr Katter called for Prime Minister Tony Abbott to immediately apologise to President Yudhoyono.

"Tony, geez, if your country, your government, the government of Australia has done something wrong, the onus is upon you to apologise," he said.

"Think if the Indonesians were tapping the telephones of our prime minister and his wife ... this is not acceptable behaviour.

"I mean spying on each other, yeah every country does that all the time, but not on the head of state and his wife."
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And WHY NOT on the head of state and his wife, if they are silly enough to discuss state secrets on their mobiles?:rolleyes:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...p-with-australia/story-fni0xqrb-1226763788127
 
Julia said:
Chris Richardson's view on the debt ceiling from "The World Today":

This is all just the usual political theatrics on both sides. Labor have nowhere to go on this. They have tacitly admitted this by asking for justification of the $500billion by Treasury. Martin Parkinson will be duly wheeled out, will say all the right words, and the whole silly argument will be history.
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http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ecretary-martin-parkinson-20131120-2xuzc.html

$500b debt limit 'prudent': Treasury Secretary Martin Parkinson
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The Treasury has gone further, advising the government to consider abandoning Australia's debt limit.
 
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