The Abbott Government

[drsmith]

This spying business is a storm in a teacup that will soon blow over.

We want trade with Indonesia (but could get by OK without it).
They want trade with us. They also want the money we throw at them in foreign aid.

After a tense month or two things will return to business as usual.
The media will be most disappointed to lose a relatively trivial issue to blow out of all proportion.

Amongst all the bluster and hyperventilation is this,

Indonesia's top government ministers are now locked in a meeting with Mr Yudhoyono and the now-recalled ambassador to Australia, discussing the state of the relationship.

Arriving at the palace, the senior minister responsible for cooperation asylum seekers, Djoko Suyanto, indicated some agreements with Australia may not be reviewed if they are mutually beneficial.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-20/abbott-regrets-indonesias-spy-scandal-embarrassment/5105326

The headline on http://www.abc.net.au/ that links to the above article is,

Indonesia cutting ties with Australia

Also of interest, Indonesia's Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa was going to appear on the ABC's 7:30 program tonight. That would no doubt be to give our government another serve.

He has since withdrawn.

 

[noco]

When you look at the calibre and politics of those who think Australia should grovel to Indonesia, then Abbott must be on the right track...ABC commentators, Fairfax commentators, the Greens and now the biggest joke of all, Bob Katter. Even the Opposition (except Shorten) aren't naive enough to ask for an apology.



And WHY NOT on the head of state and his wife, if they are silly enough to discuss state secrets on their mobiles?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...p-with-australia/story-fni0xqrb-1226763788127

Doc, it all a political nonsense by Indonesia who say "we don't spy on Australia"....Of course they do and it has been proven in the past.

Why should Abbott apologise for something that was susposed to have happened in 2009.....It is a political stunt no more and no less in an attempt to embarrass the Abbott Government.....it is a political stunt by the Indonesians in an attempt have Abbott cower to their whims and whinges....Stand your ground TA.

 

[drsmith]

Noco,

I'll assume you meant me although you didn't quote me.

Doc, it all a political nonsense by Indonesia who say "we don't spy on Australia"....Of course they do and it has been proven in the past.

That's the point I was attempting to make in my post above although perhaps I didn't make it clear.

The directly relevant part of the material I quoted above from the ABC news article was as follows,

Arriving at the palace, the senior minister responsible for cooperation asylum seekers, Djoko Suyanto, indicated some agreements with Australia may not be reviewed if they are mutually beneficial.

Meanwhile, Julie Bishop has also withdrawn from a planned 7:30 interview tomorrow night.

 

[bunyip]

Indonesia is making noises about withdrawing cooperation with Australia.
I’m wondering what ‘cooperation’ that might be?
As far as I can tell they’re not exactly showing much willingness to help us stop the boats. A boat gets into trouble near Indonesia, the Indos stay away and expect Australia to come rushing to the rescue. Then when we go to its aid, the Indos refuse to allow the boat back to Indonesia where it came from.
I wonder how many corrupt police will face lengthy sentences in Indonesian jails for taking bribes from the people smugglers. I wonder if Indonesia has a policy of lengthy jail terms for people smugglers, and burning of their boats.

Why seek their permission anyway to turn back the boats? – Alexander Downer as foreign minister simply gave instruction to our navy to escort the boats back to just outside Indonesian territorial waters and leave them with enough fuel to take them the 20 km to Indonesia.
Then he rang his Indonesian counterpart and advised him of the situation. Maybe that’s what we should be doing this around.

 

[Knobby22]

We all know it is necessary to spy, and in the case of Indonesia it is especially necessary however when information comes out that we are tapping the president etc. we need to let Indonesia save face!

Look how the USA handled Germany! If we don't let them save face then they will do so by attacking us which they have duly done. Now Abbott is making the right noises and the issue is starting to fade.

 

[Whiskers]

Chris Richardson's view on the debt ceiling from "The World Today":


This is all just the usual political theatrics on both sides. Labor have nowhere to go on this. They have tacitly admitted this by asking for justification of the $500billion by Treasury. Martin Parkinson will be duly wheeled out, will say all the right words, and the whole silly argument will be history.

Well, that didn't quite go to plan.

BUT, beware of a 'sleight of hands' by Big L Libs.

Contrary to some economists dismissing the value of a debt ceiling, if it's good enough for individuals to have limits imposed on their borrowing, why not governments. Surely the GFC and PIIGS debt crisis illustrate the value of a 'check' and balance to justify increases in debt.

Of course Capitalists (and Big L Libs) would argue the USA is a classic case of why not to... but they don't tell you that they undermine the structural budget to appear to be reducing spending and consequently debt, a sleight of hands like Howard and Costello did and Abbott is trying out now.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ecretary-martin-parkinson-20131120-2xuzc.html



The Treasury has gone further, advising the government to consider abandoning Australia's debt limit.

They Treasury actually said quite a bit more of particular relevance, esp that a $400bn limit could last until the 2015-16 financial year http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ichael-parkinson/story-fn59nsif-1226764412019

Soo if $400bn could see the gov through to the 2015/16 financial year... why not just accept 400 and get on with the job... unless they want an open cheque book again to con the public into feeling 'good', with more 'baby bonus' style spending increases while driving down the 'structural' budged deficit like Howard and Costello deceptively did, again.

Interesting that it was the Rudd government that introduced the Debt Limit. Was it all just about self discipline or did they foresee elements of his own party wanting to spend excessively as Gillard did and or the Libs harking on the fiscal management catch cry again in the future... in the slang of far right Lib supporters, set a so called booby trapped, 'monkey trap' for them, if they turned on him.

Rudd has turned out to have quite a bit of a sting in his tail!

 

[drsmith]

Rudd has turned out to have quite a bit of a sting in his tail!

If you go to bed earlier, you might stop having those dreams about Kevin Rudd.

 

[Whiskers]

If you go to bed earlier, you might stop having those dreams about Kevin Rudd.

That ain't a dream dr... it's becoming a very painful fact!

Maybe it's because you spend too much time in bed, messing around with all sorts of odd stuff in there : that I'm not familiar with... that you haven't done the homework to learn what actually makes the world go around.

 

[drsmith]

you haven't done the homework to learn what actually makes the world go around.

It's not Kevin Rudd.

 

[drsmith]

Oh dear!

A bit of overreach in this opinion piece by Fairfax political writer Jacqueline Maley,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...tter-stoush-20131119-2xteo.html#ixzz2l9uZzsWX

The original title of the article was a little different,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ydney-morning-herald-is-sprung-bull****t.html

 

[wayneL]

I wonder if a Narcissist can possibly know what makes the world go round. I wonder the same thing about trolls.

Listening to the parliament today, I do know that big L Liberals, have a better idea than the Fabian ideological numbskulls opposite.

Just musing, carry on.

BTW, whatever happened to out treason legislation? It strikes me that there have been one or two treasonous acts of late.

 

[wayneL]

Another BTW:

It is interesting that Pravda is implying (by omission more than anything) that our Tones is somehow culpable in the spy controversy.

And Tones has had the good grace not to point out that all this occurred under Labor... not that Dullard/KRudd might have known, but imo there should be so bipartisan cooperation in handling this.

 

[drsmith]

This should at least get the road to resolution on the spying issue out of the public domain,

Speaking in Jakarta today, an angry Mr Yudhoyono said Indonesia was suspending cooperation on people-smuggling issues, including combined maritime patrols.

And he said he was writing to Prime Minister Tony Abbott to demand an official explanation on why Australian spies monitored his phone and those of members of his inner circle, including his wife.

Mr Abbott later told the House of Representatives that he would be writing back "swiftly, fully and courteously" because "that is overwhelmingly in the interests of both our countries."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-20/abbott-regrets-indonesias-spy-scandal-embarrassment/5105326

My bolds.

Another BTW:

When listening to the ABC radio news yesterday at the top of the hour (6pm), the SBY spying claims was a significant story but within it there was mention of when.

With regard to QT in Parliament today, I think Labor ran out of questions. They asked the same one three times. It does however look like Bill Shorten has come into line on the spying issue. From the article above,

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten said he supported Mr Abbott's stance, saying: "This is indeed a 'Team Australia' moment.

 

[Julia]

Anyone thinking they know better than someone as well respected as Chris Richardson, whose view was echoed in Martin Parkinson's comments today should do a bit of research into the background of why the so called debt ceiling is unnecessary.

 

[Whiskers]

Another BTW:

It is interesting that Pravda is implying (by omission more than anything) that our Tones is somehow culpable in the spy controversy.

And Tones has had the good grace not to point out that all this occurred under Labor... not that Dullard/KRudd might have known, but imo there should be so bipartisan cooperation in handling this.

:bs:

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
― Adolf Hitler​

Someone :aus: did mention that it did happen while Labor was in office, BUT...

Well, the proverbial **** has hit the fan now!

Indonesia will call back its ambassador to Australia and "review" Australian diplomatic positions in Jakarta as anger rises in Indonesia over revelations that Australia tapped the phone of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and his wife.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/indones...pying-claim-20131118-2xr5x.html#ixzz2kzVFLsIP​

Given everyone knows a certain amount of spying goes on and...

Last week during his visit to Canberra, Vice-President Boediono said the Indonesian public was concerned about the previous spying revelations and called for a truce on using information gathered by spying against each other.

"I think we must look forward to come to some arrangement which guarantees that intelligence information from each side is not used against the other. There must be a system,"' he said.
​

It would seem quite obvious that Abbott and Bishop would not call a truce and promise not to do it again in the future.

Documents released by whistleblower Edward Snowden reveal that in 2009 Australia's Defence Signals Directorate targeted the personal mobile numbers of both Dr Yudhoyono and his wife, Kristiani Herawati, as well as eight others in the President's inner circle, including the Vice-President.​

So, for the Aus voter, the big unanswered question is who, knew what and when.

Did some sort of covert US intelligence get embedded in our intelligence service during Howards close friendship with George Bush and the war on terrorism, that Labor didn't know about... or is Labor responsible?

Former Coalition government foreign minister Alexander Downer said the revelations were damaging to Australia.

"It's a shocking situation in which Australia will pay a big price," Sky News cited Mr Downer as saying.​

Is Downer speaking from experience and or knowledge?

No doubt it will blow over in time, but why couldn't they come to a truce? Was spying used in the 'turn back the boats' campaign causing that to blow out to be a big a thorn in the side? Not good for trade relations improving any time soon.

That would explain it, if Rudd and Gillard didn't know who was being spied on... and, WHAT did Downer say!

On the spying issue - it seems the damaging allegations happened in 2009 when Rudd was PM. Why would Fairfax and the ABC try to pin this on Abbott unless they are trying to undermine any progress Abbott has made on Asylum seekers? And now it's another massive mess left by labor for the Coalition to clean up.

How labor supporters can tolerate let alone support this sort of behaviour is beyond me.



Read more (bold above is mine):
http://www.smh.com.au/world/indones...stralia-over-spying-claim-20131118-2xr5x.html

What, Fairfax and the abc trying to pin it on Abbott!?

Someone better have a yarn to Rupert about his papers dareing to run the same story about spying and Indonesia withdrawing their ambassador. Is Rupert and News "trying to undermine any progress Abbott has made on Asylum seekers" too?

http://www.news.com.au/national/jak...er-spying-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226762823093

Not laying the blame at Howard feet... just pointing out that, Indo has closer affinity to Labor than Lib, and that Howard tested their tolerance (rightly so over Timor) before Abbott... hence my point about the legacy of earlier politics that Abbott seems to have underestimated before 'testing' them again.

Labor seemed to have a better repour and knew how far they could push Indo without sacrificing trade too much... well at least until Gillard lost the plot.

:thankyou:

 

[Whiskers]

Anyone thinking they know better than someone as well respected as Chris Richardson, whose view was echoed in Martin Parkinson's comments today should do a bit of research into the background of why the so called debt ceiling is unnecessary.

Could it be that the periodic wrangling over the debt limit actually saved the US from going broke much sooner!?

Lets get some context: Chris Richardson is a former Treasury official, now a consulting economist. He is in the business of generating consultancy business among other things.

You would be familiar with many spectacular business and governmental failures from relying on advice they did not understand, from consultants. Think the massive Enron disaster and the problems with our CSIRO from so called management consultant firm McKinsey & Company, the American global management consulting firm. In all these cases the 'consultants' make a motza in fees from persuading people to accept their advice and let them defacto manage your business, but carry none of the financial risk.

Chris Richardson says because Parliament already approves the budget every year there's no need to separately approve debt. But other governments are considering debt limits because of corrupt and or vested interest permeating some governments and attempts to simply write down or write off the debt when it gets too hard.

Martin Parkinson (treasury) told the senate estimates that "We have seen in the United States the consequence of political process or politics getting in the way of good government. And I just think - so I am expressing an opinion..."

Sounds more like a political than a sound economic management, audit, accountability or governance opinion.

Parkinson ALSO said that we did not have a debt limit prior to 2008. That removing the debt limit is clearly an option for Government. Alternatively, if a debt limit is to exist, it could be specified as a share of GDP (Gross Domestic Product), in which case the dollar amount, the limit would rise over time. It could be specified as a dollar amount which was indexed to GDP growth, again which would mean it would rise over time. Or it could be specified as a fixed-dollar term.

Republican, John Boehner, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, said that he considers the debt limit an important part of the democratic process, a way to effect needed change when other methods fail.

The U.S. is the only democratic country, besides Denmark, in which Congress has to approve borrowing separately from spending.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...c-country-besides-america-has-a-debt-ceiling/​

Had the Mediterranean states including Greece (PIIGS) had a debt ceiling maybe they would not have been able to borrow as much as they did and cause Europe and the rest of the world like us, so much economic pain.

The GAO report found that the United States acted the opposite of most countries because it uses the debt limit to shed light on runaway spending rather than using spending bills to address growing debt.

Germany, for example, approved a constitutional amendment in 2009 that requires their budget to be virtually balanced, only allowing the deficit to be .35 percent of gross domestic product.

The European Union caps the debt for member countries at 60 percent of GDP.

Joseph Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, argued this measure was “just an indicator, not a hard and fast limit.”

With Greece’s debt expected to peak in 2012 at 161 percent of the country’s GDP, the EU is talking about creating more stringent enforcement procedures to ensure countries do not break the 60 percent mark in the future.

But according to Gagnon, the EU will not consider a system like that in the U.S.​

and then some dude once thought...

The city of Melbourne is as bustling as ever, its residents apparently quite sure that those clowns in Canberra's decision to not cap the nation's (quite tiny) national debt won't turn the city into a great ball of fire.http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-dont-have-debt-ceilings-and-are-not-on-fire/​

How quickly things can change!

 

[noco]

Doc, it all a political nonsense by Indonesia who say "we don't spy on Australia"....Of course they do and it has been proven in the past.

Why should Abbott apologise for something that was susposed to have happened in 2009.....It is a political stunt no more and no less in an attempt to embarrass the Abbott Government.....it is a political stunt by the Indonesians in an attempt have Abbott cower to their whims and whinges....Stand your ground TA.

The ABC are certainly not doing Abbott any favours.

They appear to be aiding and abetting the Indons.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...maging-australia/story-fnj45fvb-1226764657800

 

[trainspotter]

Errmmmmmm Whiskers ... your level of comprehension has escaped you but your circumlocutory powers have gathered strength. Be a good love and take a chill pill.

 

[trainspotter]

Meanwhile back on the Hill ... cant wait for next Tuesday as the repeal of the Carbon Tax gathers momentum

Should be a door slammer in parliament on that day. I can just see Adam Bandt wringing his hands and blaming TA for the bushfires and super typhoons ! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh !!! he will

Labors mettle will be tested to the fullest. Like ants under a magnifying glass with the blistering heat of the sun (CO2 free) they will be scurrying for cover and back down their delusional hole that Australia is somehow a super polluter. Let's try 1.34% of the worlds total carbon dioxide emissions shall we. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh !! they will

 

[trainspotter]

When you look at the calibre and politics of those who think Australia should grovel to Indonesia, then Abbott must be on the right track...ABC commentators, Fairfax commentators, the Greens and now the biggest joke of all, Bob Katter. Even the Opposition (except Shorten) aren't naive enough to ask for an apology.

And WHY NOT on the head of state and his wife, if they are silly enough to discuss state secrets on their mobiles?]

Just thinking out loud but I wonder if SBY will stop taking the $540 million in foreign aid we send every year as sign of protest?