Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[SirRumpole]

I'd go so far as to argue that during the darkest times of the Christian world, that the Islamic nations were far better places to live, especially if you were endeavouring to push the bounds of scientific understanding.

I'm sure that in its halcyon days Islam was a cultured and peaceful religion, however, then as now it rules its subjects with an iron fist, threats of death for apostacy and criticising Islam as many of its critics will attest to eg Salman Rushdie.

Once you are born into an Islamic family, they own you for life which is simply wrong.

Yes, you can blame extremist sects, but if the poison was not in the writings in the first place then no one would take it.

Until the violent parts of the Koran and other Islamic texts are expunged or publicly repudiated by Muslim leaders around the world, Muslims will not be entirely trusted.

It's their problem not ours if they chose to follow a poisonous ideology.

 

[luutzu]

I'm sure that in its halcyon days Islam was a cultured and peaceful religion, however, then as now it rules its subjects with an iron fist, threats of death for apostacy and criticising Islam as many of its critics will attest to eg Salman Rushdie.

Once you are born into an Islamic family, they own you for life which is simply wrong.

Yes, you can blame extremist sects, but if the poison was not in the writings in the first place then no one would take it.

Until the violent parts of the Koran and other Islamic texts are expunged or publicly repudiated by Muslim leaders around the world, Muslims will not be entirely trusted.

It's their problem not ours if they chose to follow a poisonous ideology.

Where's VC? He's going to have a field day with the above

You're not going to get any repudiation from religious leaders about the nastiness of their religion. Most would ignore the bad bits, focus on the good. But the thing about religious text is you can't question any part of it... that kind of work needs to be done by secular political systems.

Any country that adopt a religion as its guiding principle is doomed. There's plenty of examples in the Arab middle east right? But look at the "democratic" Jewish state of Israel. Theirs is one messed up country with a bunch of crazies who believe the land they're on is God's promised land yadida...

What we need is a country that put the mighty dollar above all else. Market driven, invisible hand, enlightened self-interest guiding capitalists and people to help one another... Just make sure you got money though.

 

[SirRumpole]

Where's VC? He's going to have a field day with the above

Why ? It's all true.

You're not going to get any repudiation from religious leaders about the nastiness of their religion. Most would ignore the bad bits, focus on the good. But the thing about religious text is you can't question any part of it... that kind of work needs to be done by secular political systems.

Any country that adopt a religion as its guiding principle is doomed. There's plenty of examples in the Arab middle east right? But look at the "democratic" Jewish state of Israel. Theirs is one messed up country with a bunch of crazies who believe the land they're on is God's promised land yadida...

Agreed.

What we need is a country that put the mighty dollar above all else. Market driven, invisible hand, enlightened self-interest guiding capitalists and people to help one another... Just make sure you got money though.

That's not what we want at all. I'm sure you are saying that tongue in cheek

What we need is an ethical society without religion, but I doubt that will happen in my lifetime.

 

[FxTrader]

You have the Christian right in the USA supporting a neocon view of the world - Bush Jnr showed what that can be like - where half of them are pretty darn sure that the rapture will occur in their life time. The Hebrew belief is not dissimilar in the return of God cleansing the earth.

The Christian right's ultimate focus, like many other fundamentalist religious zealots from other faiths, is to establish a theocratic state. They use politics as a tool to further social conservatism and preserve (impose) Christian "values" and beliefs in society. It's religion masquerading as politics as amply demonstrated during the Bush Jr. administration.

To what extent the Christian right as a movement supports the NeoCon agenda is unclear but the focus of NeoCons is to use military power to protect American interests and establish democratic states by force. This focus does not align well with Christian beliefs so it's unlikely to be broadly accepted by conservative Christians as a whole.

It's very dangerous when you have people with a view that death is actually the gateway to a better "life". I fear the muslim version a bit more in that they are currently acting on the belief. That's not to say some Christians are not as well, but as far as I can tell none of them seem to be actively out trying to end the world, but is a reason why they actively fight against any action against AGW, contraception, stem cell research etc.

The bad idea that this life is just a pathway to a better afterlife with a loving sky God is of course not unique to Islam. I know plenty of Christians who regard their lives as a burden they must bear until they can sing praises for eternity to the God that inflicted this cursed earth test of faith on them. It's a type of insanity promoted as worthwhile aspiration.

I don't believe this clash of cultures can be won by the sword, because if we end up down that path, victory for the 'west" would likely mean a regression back to at least WWII attitudes to war where mass civicilan casualties were not a by product but a design of how to fight. I don't think going back to that kind of barbarism where fire bombing cities and immolating hundreds of thousands of civilians is the kind of world I want to strive for.

While you may not think that the "clash of religions" (religion alone is not culture but simply one component of it) can be won by conflict, Islamists certainly do. Jihad as a war or struggle against unbelievers is a core theme in Islam, this struggle includes undermining democratic political systems from within as well as violent conflict against infidels. Some Muslims take the call to Jihad much more seriously than others but the aim is still theocracy.

The current Turkish government is a good example of how to use democracy to further the cause of an Islamic Republic where some 77,000+ Mosques and Imams are funded by the Turkish taxpayer in a so called secular state. In virtually every city and town you are treated to the prerecorded prayer chants of Islamic myth (I liken it to a form of religious screaming over loud speakers) several times a day whether you like it or not, that's democracy only for Muslims.

The religion is not so much the problem, but the intent of those who do their best to enforce their religious views into the real world, and the consequences those beliefs cause.

Religion is at the very core of the problem, it creates the call to evangelism, promotes myth as absolute truth and promotes the bad idea that some form of afterlife is all that's worth aspiring to in this life. People are just pawns in an earthly power game (perpetuated by religious clerics) who are manipulated in mass to believe things as a group that would otherwise be considered deranged if held by an individual.

Better educated humans (via the internet and other means) are indeed a hope out of this religious malaise impeding human progress and intellectual enlightenment but do not underestimate the ability of religious groups to suppress teaching of anything deemed offensive to them or their religion (e.g. evolution). Expect a future where speaking out against the mythical nonsense that is religion will be increasingly dangerous to one's well-being.

 

[Value Collector]

Until the violent parts of the Koran and other Islamic texts are expunged or publicly repudiated by Muslim leaders around the world, Muslims will not be entirely trusted.

.

Can you name any violent parts of the Koran for which the Bible doesn't have an equal verse?

You seem to give the bible credit for Morality because of the 10 commandments, Why don't you give the Koran credit for morality? Because it contains the exact 10 commandments the bible has.

 

[SirRumpole]

Can you name any violent parts of the Koran for which the Bible doesn't have an equal verse?

You seem to give the bible credit for Morality because of the 10 commandments, Why don't you give the Koran credit for morality? Because it contains the exact 10 commandments the bible has.

Straw man argument again. You try and distract from the problems of Islam by diversion to another religion.

How many countries with Christian or secular societies in this day and age execute people for marrying who they want to ? stone women for adultery ? flog and imprison homosexuals ? threaten to and actually kill those who criticise their religion ? Where is the morality there ?

Face the problem. Whatever issues other religions have they are miniscule compared to the problems caused by Islam around the world.

 

[Value Collector]

Straw man argument again. You try and distract from the problems of Islam by diversion to another religion.


.

Its not a straw man at all.

You are saying as long as the Koran contains violent passages, muslims can't be trusted, I am just pointing out that the books from the other brands of Abrahamic religion contain the same violence, however you don't seem to have trouble trusting them, you have even said they are the source of morality, because of the ten commandments.

How many countries with Christian or secular societies in this day and age execute people for marrying who they want to ? stone women for adultery ? flog and imprison homosexuals ? threaten to and actually kill those who criticise their religion ? Where is the morality there ?

Some Christian countries in Africa are facing those issues.

In recent times Christians in Africa have been burning witches, killing and imprisoning gays, again I think your failure to research being shown here.

Face the problem. Whatever issues other religions have they are miniscule compared to the problems caused by Islam around the world

I didn't say Islam wasn't a problem, just pointing out your "Bible good, Koran Bad" attitude is a bit off base, the majority of Muslims ignore the bad parts of the Koran just like the Bible believers ignore the bad parts in their book.

We aren't going to get anywhere by attacking one religion.

 

[tech/a]

All religions are prehistoric.
Arrogantly made by Man.

Our God created everything.
My god is a better god than your god.

 

[SirRumpole]

Its not a straw man at all.

You are saying as long as the Koran contains violent passages, muslims can't be trusted, I am just pointing out that the books from the other brands of Abrahamic religion contain the same violence, however you don't seem to have trouble trusting them, you have even said they are the source of morality, because of the ten commandments.

I don't trust any extreme religion, there are bad Christian sects but Islam hasn't dragged itself out of the Dark Ages in comparison with mainstream Christianity.

I didn't say Islam wasn't a problem, just pointing out your "Bible good, Koran Bad" attitude is a bit off base, the majority of Muslims ignore the bad parts of the Koran just like the Bible believers ignore the bad parts in their book.

We aren't going to get anywhere by attacking one religion.

There are many bits in the Bible that are violent, but in the main the Christian church has raised itself above them.

How many people have been radicalised to commit crimes in the name of Christianity ? Why is it more of a problem with Islam ?

I will advance this possibility.

In the Bible the violent bits are supposed to be done by God himself to show his displeasure, in the Koran it seems to be encouraging his followers to carry out those acts. While Christians may say that HIV or global warming is God's revenge (as stupid as that is) is not inciting anyone to violence as this is

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

 

[Value Collector]

I don't trust any extreme religion, there are bad Christian sects but Islam hasn't dragged itself out of the Dark Ages in comparison with mainstream Christianity.

There are many bits in the Bible that are violent, but in the main the Christian church has raised itself above them.

How many people have been radicalised to commit crimes in the name of Christianity ? Why is it more of a problem with Islam ?

I think its more of a problem caused by under developed nations, eg Christianity is a problem in third world Africa.

Generally the more developed a nation is the more secular its laws and the more moderate it's population. I think its is by chance alone that Christianity is the main religion in the more advanced nations. When it is introduced into third world countries it can be just as damaging as Islam.

I will advance this possibility.

In the Bible the violent bits are supposed to be done by God himself to show his displeasure,

Again you are just showing your lack of biblical knowledge. the bible calls for followers to do lots of horrible things.

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death.

Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.

 

[Value Collector]

Christians Beating, Killing, Burning innocent children in Africa.

 

[SirRumpole]

Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)

So where are people actually following this ?

The other thing with Islam is that there is no separation of Church and State, so the dictates of Islam are not moderated by secular laws. Islam wants to turn every country it resides in into an Islamic caliphate where the religion is the law. Not so in places like Australia where religion is subordinate to the law.

I would like this country to stay secular, which is why the Muslim population in this country must be limited so they can never get control of our government.

 

[Value Collector]

Christians burning "witches" alive in Africa.

 

[Knobby22]

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one whoad mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Value Collector]

So where are people actually following this ?

.

Google the lords resistance army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

The other thing with Islam is that there is no separation of Church and State, so the dictates of Islam are not moderated by secular laws. Islam wants to turn every country it resides in into an Islamic caliphate where the religion is the law. Not so in places like Australia where religion is subordinate to the law.

Christians and jews don't want there to be separation between church and state either, that's something secular society has forced them to accept, its not the default position.

Look at the stuff even a moderate like Tink says, she is always pushing for more religion in schools and government.

 

[Value Collector]

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

.”

Its the big book of multiple choice isn't it.

If you don't want to love your neighbour, just read this verse when jesus says.


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple

 

[Knobby22]

Translation's a wonderful thing.

"If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison--your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

Also I am sure you know the verse about taxation, give unto Ceaser what is Ceasar's. etc.


And there are no laws like Sharia. There are laws such as don't eat pork in the old testament but that is not Christianity.

 

[Value Collector]

Translation's a wonderful thing.

"If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison--your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

lol, nice sugar coating there.

The thing is, I think its far more healthy to put real people before your imaginary friends.

also, that would be a bad comparison, because hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is

 

[SirRumpole]

Google the lords resistance army.

The LRA is an isolated movement centered around one loony.

Islam is a global movement centered around lots of loonies.

Anyway, the "religious" USA has declared the LRA a terrorist organisation.

 

[Value Collector]

The LRA is an isolated movement centered around one loony.

Islam is a global movement centered around lots of loonies.

.

The LRA is just one example.

Islam is just like Christianity, it is made up of many groups, some are extreme and some aren't.

Islam is not one thing or one group of people, just like Christianity isn't one thing.

Anyway, the "religious" USA has declared the LRA a terrorist organisation

Yep, just like they declare the Islamic extremist groups terrorists.

Are you trying to say they aren't Christian, because they are terrorists? because that's like saying ISIS aren't Muslim, because they are terrorists.