Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

Jump to new
Value Collector said:
Who is he

If that's the real sign that he held up, then I think he is an idiot, and offcourse I would support denying him a visa.

Why, what did you think I would think?
Click to expand...

He is a bloke at a protest in Sydney. As far as I know he is still here. Should he and others like him be thrown out ?

So under your reasoning, why should anyone who believes in the Koran be given a visa ? The Koran says to hate infidels (non Muslims) , so why shouldn't they be considered a threat ?

Where should we draw the line ?
 
SirRumpole said:
He is a bloke at a protest in Sydney. As far as I know he is still here. Should he and others like him be thrown out ?
Click to expand...

Is he a citizen? was he born here?

You can't really throw out a citizen, the person we are discussing eg, the anti abortion guy isn't a citizen of Australia, he was an American trying to come in, If the Muslim guy in the photo was trying to come in and authorities new he wanted to behead people, he would have been denied too.

So under your reasoning, why should anyone who believes in the Koran be given a visa ? The Koran says to hate infidels (non Muslims) , so why shouldn't they be considered a threat ?
Click to expand...

The same reason why we give visas to people who believe in the bible. not all of them actually take notice of the nasty bits.

Where should we draw the line
Click to expand...

exactly the same place we draw it for the bible believers, if we think they actually support the nasty bits and want to whip up trouble, we should deny the visa.
 
Value Collector said:
I think I would be fine with throwing him out, Can you think of any reason not too?

But according to you and tink I would be denying him his right to free speech.
Click to expand...

No, I would be fine with throwing him out too, but you have to admit it's a fine line.

If the anti abortion guy is just saying that abortion doctors should be prosecuted for murder and then executed if found guilty is that any different to other pro capital punishment advocates ?

Australia does not support capital punishment, so should advocates of it be denied a visa ?

I wouldn't blame anyone for not being able to answer the question because there are arguments on both sides.

How about holocaust deniers ? They aren't advocating violence against anyone, just arguing their version of history, and this guy has been banned.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s96976.htm
 
SirRumpole said:
No, I would be fine with throwing him out too, but you have to admit it's a fine line.

If the anti abortion guy is just saying that abortion doctors should be prosecuted for murder and then executed if found guilty is that any different to other pro capital punishment advocates ?

Australia does not support capital punishment, so should advocates of it be denied a visa ?

I wouldn't blame anyone for not being able to answer the question because there are arguments on both sides.

How about holocaust deniers ? They aren't advocating violence against anyone, just arguing their version of history, and this guy has been banned.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s96976.htm
Click to expand...

Well really we don't have to let anyone in we feel is a threat or a trouble maker, generally its taken on a case by case basis, I guess the guy responsible for making the decision has to figure out if a genuine threat exists, and will probably lean to the side of caution.

Even if you were convicted with drink driving 5 years ago you can be denied entry to both Australia, USA, Canada and most other western countries, that's the thing, you don't have a "right" to enter other countries, its a privilege granted to those who we feel won't cause trouble.
 
Value Collector said:
Well really we don't have to let anyone in we feel is a threat or a trouble maker, generally its taken on a case by case basis, I guess the guy responsible for making the decision has to figure out if a genuine threat exists, and will probably lean to the side of caution.

Even if you were convicted with drink driving 5 years ago you can be denied entry to both Australia, USA, Canada and most other western countries, that's the thing, you don't have a "right" to enter other countries, its a privilege granted to those who we feel won't cause trouble.
Click to expand...

Agree that it's a privilege not a right, but that's where "free speech" comes in doesn't it ?

Do we really think that Brown bloke is a "threat", or do we just don't like what he did a few years ago ?

I'm not having a go a you (this time :D), I just think that the boundaries are very blurry and it probably depends on whether the Libs are in power (less tolerant) or the Labs (more tolerant).
 
SirRumpole said:
, but that's where "free speech" comes in doesn't it ?

.
Click to expand...

Nope, free speech means we won't jail him for holding or expressing an opinion, denying him a visa isn't a punishment, it's a security measure we are taking to protect our citizens from a possible external threat.

Do we really think that Brown bloke is a "threat", or do we just don't like what he did a few years ago ?
Click to expand...

I don't know if he is a genuine threat, I haven't interviewed him, but we deny all sorts of people who may not be genuine threats, eg a guy who drank and drove 5 years ago and learned his lesson and wasn't planning on driving during his holiday anyway.

I'm not having a go a you (this time :D), I just think that the boundaries are very blurry and it probably depends on whether the Libs are in power (less tolerant) or the Labs (more tolerant
Click to expand...

It was actually labor that wanted to restrict the anti abortion guys visa apparently,
 
but we deny all sorts of people who may not be genuine threats, eg a guy who drank and drove 5 years ago and learned his lesson and wasn't planning on driving during his holiday anyway.
Click to expand...

Ah, that would be the slippery slope fallacy wouldn't it ?
 
"Police say gunman outside NSW police headquarters was 15yo radicalised youth of Middle Eastern background"



[ABC Online breaking news headline]

So , where to from here ?

The Muslim community think that stronger anti terrorism laws victimise them, and yet their offspring do things like shooting innocent government employees.

Should we wind back our terrorism laws to avoid offending people, or go in harder and weed them out ?

Tough decision, glad I don't have to make it, but I'm reminded of Theodore Roosevelt's saying,

"speak softly and carry a big stick"
 
SirRumpole said:
"Police say gunman outside NSW police headquarters was 15yo radicalised youth of Middle Eastern background"



[ABC Online breaking news headline]

So , where to from here ?

The Muslim community think that stronger anti terrorism laws victimise them, and yet their offspring do things like shooting innocent government employees.

Should we wind back our terrorism laws to avoid offending people, or go in harder and weed them out ?

Tough decision, glad I don't have to make it, but I'm reminded of Theodore Roosevelt's saying,

"speak softly and carry a big stick"
Click to expand...

lets wait a week or two before we start to try and answer that question.

Do you remember the police removing the sword from the muslim terrorist suspect house in Sydney last year in September?

Massive front page stories about it in the tabloids as proof just how bad muslims can be.

Turned out the sword was made of plastic, it's actually just plastic decoration common in almost every Shiite Muslim household, not dissimilar to say a crucifix or other religious icons found in many other religious households.

I prefer to remain sceptical until cooler heads have had time to examine the evidence and more of the truth has been able to come out.

You have the Christian right in the USA supporting a neocon view of the world - Bush Jnr showed what that can be like - where half of them are pretty darn sure that the rapture will occur in their life time. The Hebrew belieft is not dissimilar in the return of God cleansing the earth.

To myself, that is not a dissimilar view to the muslim belief of dying a martyr and getting the all inclusive VIP pass into heaven.

It's very dangerous when you have people with a view that death is actually the gateway to a better "life". I fear the muslim version a bit more in that they are currently acting on the belief. That's not to say some Christians are not as well, but as far as I can tell none of them seem to be actively out trying to end the world, but is a reason why they actively fight against any action against AGW, contraception, stem cell research etc.

Some interesting things to ponder on from history is how during the inquisition years the ottoman empire seemed to be, in relative terms, not dissimilar to how the west is today when compared to islamic nations. The Ottomans accepted tens of thousands of jews that were fleeing persecution from the Christendom. Amazingly, when muslims had conquered much of the known world they actually followed the Koran in wiping out all the infidels.

Now we have the Saudis making a pact with the devil to export the virulent destructive wahhabist sick views of what it is to be a muslim. We have the UAE so terrified of what could happen within their borders they wont try to resolve the problem anywhere else.

An argument I hear often is that it's just the muslims doing these mass killings? Is it? How many died in the Iraq war? How many died because we stopped working hard in afghanistan? How many died with the failed libyan pool party experiment? Seems in the west we have a blind spot when it's militarily state sanctioned, but never seem to miss when it's done via a someone professing to be a muslim.

I don't believe this clash of cultures can be won by the sword, because if we end up down that path, victory for the 'west" would likely mean a regression back to at least WWII attitudes to war where mass civicilan casualties were not a by product but a design of how to fight. I don't think going back to that kind of barbarism where fire bombing cities and immolating hundreds of thousands of civilians is the kind of world I want to strive for.

i also know that it's unlikely one can stop the likes of ISIS via talk alone, but where the west does get some kudos from the muslim world for stepping into kosovo to stop the genocide that was going on there, once you get infidels onto traditional arab / muslim land (the two are so intertwined you cannot separate them) then we seem to have to worry so much about inflaming the problem in other areas, that maybe we should be providing the moral and logistical support to those who should be the ones righting against ISIS and all the militant forms of islam and jihad.

So maybe bombing books into countries and providing internet access could be a better, cheaper and more humane way forward.

Is there much difference in a Christian missionary in sub saharn africa convincing people to not use condoms, therefore increase the rates of HIV infections, and a muslim wearing a bomb vest and killing them? I'd personally take the fast death, over the extended wasting due to a failing immune system where I would likely not have any access to life saving drugs.

The religion is not so much the problem, but the intent of those who do their best to enforce their religious views into the real world, and the consequences those beliefs cause.
 
sydboy007 said:
The religion is not so much the problem, but the intent of those who do their best to enforce their religious views into the real world, and the consequences those beliefs cause.
Click to expand...

So you think that if Islam had never been invented we would still have terrorists killing people in the name of Islam ?

Really, what has Islam given the world ?

I haven't heard of any Muslim charities giving out food to the homeless, regardless of what you say about Christians at least some of them are out there trying to help others.
 
Is there much difference in a Christian missionary in sub saharn africa convincing people to not use condoms, therefore increase the rates of HIV infections, and a muslim wearing a bomb vest and killing them?
Click to expand...

Yes there is a difference, one of intent. Intent to kill vs misguided adherence to ineffective methods.
 
SirRumpole said:
So you think that if Islam had never been invented we would still have terrorists killing people in the name of Islam ?

Really, what has Islam given the world ?

I haven't heard of any Muslim charities giving out food to the homeless, regardless of what you say about Christians at least some of them are out there trying to help others.
Click to expand...

I saw plenty of billboard ads from Islamic charities around where I live. Raising money for Palestinians, Libyans, Syrians etc.

Every community raises money for charities, just we may not be made aware of it or they don't have money to buy a TV ad campaign.

Regarding Islam n its contributions... Seriously?

Islam actually encourages science and critical enquiries. That Allah put us on Earth so we can discover his mysteries n solve our own problems etc. hence u get al those Latin books that preserve Western civilisation and teachings. Leading the west out of its Dark Ages.

The other one kinda burn the books, lock up scholars and scientists and put together witch hunting parties and crazy cures for illnesses. Then when modern science n advances is forced onto them they then claim it's all theirs effort

There's a lot more man... Least is the Arabic numeral system. Can't do proper maths with Roman numerals.
 
luutzu said:
I saw plenty of billboard ads from Islamic charities around where I live. Raising money for Palestinians, Libyans, Syrians etc.

Every community raises money for charities, just we may not be made aware of it or they don't have money to buy a TV ad campaign.

Regarding Islam n its contributions... Seriously?

Islam actually encourages science and critical enquiries. That Allah put us on Earth so we can discover his mysteries n solve our own problems etc. hence u get al those Latin books that preserve Western civilisation and teachings. Leading the west out of its Dark Ages.

The other one kinda burn the books, lock up scholars and scientists and put together witch hunting parties and crazy cures for illnesses. Then when modern science n advances is forced onto them they then claim it's all theirs effort

There's a lot more man... Least is the Arabic numeral system. Can't do proper maths with Roman numerals.
Click to expand...

There have only been two Muslims that I can find who have been awarded the Nobel Prize for science.

Take that as you will.
 
SirRumpole said:
There have only been two Muslims that I can find who have been awarded the Nobel Prize for science.

Take that as you will.
Click to expand...

If ur country is colonised and dominated for the past 300 years, with foreign powers, from the Brits to the French to the new American empires, and thru puppets and friendly dictators... See how well you'd turn out scholastically. But eu, they're getting very good at digging tunnels though right? Too bad that's not a category.

How many Jews won the Nobel during WW2?

Obama and Kissinger won Nobel for peace too. Just saying. The worlds biggest war criminal, with career spanning decades overthrowing legitimate govt from Asia to the ME to Sth America was given one after decade of stifling the peace effort. And Obama? To be fair, they didn't know he will be expanding drone strikes n keep playing with the Russian at their borders.
 
SirRumpole said:
I haven't heard of any Muslim charities giving out food to the homeless, regardless of what you say about Christians at least some of them are out there trying to help others.
Click to expand...

Well we can't blame them for your inability to google, have you even done a 2 min search to see what charities are out there?
 
SirRumpole said:
So you think that if Islam had never been invented we would still have terrorists killing people in the name of Islam ?

Really, what has Islam given the world ?

I haven't heard of any Muslim charities giving out food to the homeless, regardless of what you say about Christians at least some of them are out there trying to help others.
Click to expand...

One could argue that a result of the Islamic prohibition on depicting the human form was the extensive use of complex geometric patterns to decorate their buildings, raising mathematics to the form of an art. In fact, over time, Muslim artists discovered all the different forms of symmetry that can be depicted on a 2-dimensional surface.

You then have the Islamic tradition of the past in collecting as much of the written knowledge of the time and translated much of the Greek and Indian mathematical and astronomy works into Arabic.

I'd go so far as to argue that during the darkest times of the Christian world, that the Islamic nations were far better places to live, especially if you were endeavouring to push the bounds of scientific understanding.

But in many ways that's irrelevant to today. A crazy person dead 800 years ago can't detonate a nuclear device today, but it does show that islamic nations don't HAVE to be regressive and despotic.

SirRumpole said:
Yes there is a difference, one of intent. Intent to kill vs misguided adherence to ineffective methods.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you'd find that comforting if say a person killed someone you deeply care for and it was considered manslaughter rather than murder.

As far as I am concerned someone telling people in high risk areas for contracting HIV are basically mass murderers. Christians doing this are just as bad as muslims spreading lies about vaccinations being a western plot to cause men to be sterile which leads to unnecessary deaths and long term health issues. Religious dogma kills, sometimes fast and sometimes slowly.
 
Top