Punish the poor, reward the rich!

[sptrawler]

The thing I find interesting about this debate, it seems to be built on the premise, all Companies want to rip their workers of and all workers are hard working and conscientious.

It obviously isn't true, but only one side gets airplay.

 

[tech/a]

Because a lone employee doesn't have the strength to negotiate anything other than what the employer is offering.

Employees (Like employers) have to understand that to outperform competition you
need to stand out from that competition.
If your a stand out then you can negotiate more than you think! Employer And Or Employee.

I want you Ill pay you for outperformance---show me!

You want to work for me because as leaders in our field I pay well and give you job security
challenging projects and great equipment. We BOTH stand out!

Why would I or my employees want me to pay someone who isn't a stand out ---- more than them?

I give people bonuses out of the blue.
If a client mentions someone positively and personally Ill flick them $500
You'd be surprised how often I here directly from clients that one of my people has excelled.
Word travels fast both internally and from clients mouths.
Bonus payouts increase each year as does my company. Its all correlated.

YOU CONTROL YOUR DESTINY

 

[sptrawler]

Employees (Like employers) have to understand that to outperform competition you
need to stand out from that competition.
If your a stand out then you can negotiate more than you think! Employer And Or Employee.

I want you Ill pay you for outperformance---show me!

You want to work for me because as leaders in our field I pay well and give you job security
challenging projects and great equipment. We BOTH stand out!

Why would I or my employees want me to pay someone who isn't a stand out ---- more than them?

I give people bonuses out of the blue.
If a client mentions someone positively and personally Ill flick them $500
You'd be surprised how often I here directly from clients that one of my people has excelled.
Word travels fast both internally and from clients mouths.
Bonus payouts increase each year as does my company. Its all correlated.

YOU CONTROL YOUR DESTINY

I agree with you T/A, I mainly worked for large Companies, during my working career. Most of them had provisions in place, whereby any one with initiative, ability and ambition could reach their potential.
Actually a lot of the tradespeople with ability, enthusiasm and aptitude, became Operations Managers one I know is the current CEO of a top 200 Australian Company.
They finished their apprenticeships and then went on to further studies, to either become technicians or production controllers, the other stand out tradesmen usually became team leaders, supervisors or even superintendents.
There are of course others who either don't have the desire, application or ability to further themselves.
I'm not critical of them, it is their choice, a friend did his apprenticeship with me he has been a council waste collector ever since. his choice and he is happy, we're still best mates nearly 50 years later.

Like I said I worked in mainly large Corporations, some private some Government, I always availed myself the opportunity to improve my career path by studying, moving for employment opportunities and applying for promotions.
The opportunities are there, it takes sacrifice, effort, drive and ambition something that sadly not everyone has. We can't all be held responsible, for someone else's choices.

 

[PZ99]

Employees (Like employers) have to understand that to outperform competition you
need to stand out from that competition.
If your a stand out then you can negotiate more than you think! Employer And Or Employee.

I want you Ill pay you for outperformance---show me!

You want to work for me because as leaders in our field I pay well and give you job security
challenging projects and great equipment. We BOTH stand out!

Why would I or my employees want me to pay someone who isn't a stand out ---- more than them?

I give people bonuses out of the blue.
If a client mentions someone positively and personally Ill flick them $500
You'd be surprised how often I here directly from clients that one of my people has excelled.
Word travels fast both internally and from clients mouths.
Bonus payouts increase each year as does my company. Its all correlated.

YOU CONTROL YOUR DESTINY

So you're still doing these good deeds yes?

Flicking employees $500 for positive feedback?

Paying bonuses out of the blue?

So... you don't need the laws to change right?

 

[PZ99]

The thing I find interesting about this debate, it seems to be built on the premise, all Companies want to rip their workers of and all workers are hard working and conscientious.

It obviously isn't true, but only one side gets airplay.

Have you tried changing the channel?

 

[PZ99]

Not true, I've always worked for large employers. In fact, the large banks are almost always willing to bid more for you, if you're providing value.

I've witnessed the opposite on many sites, usually factories, warehouses and the like. If you're a good worker you'll get over used and abused because that's how the manger gets their KPI targets. That same manager was a lazy worker prior to that. Rinse wash repeat - on many sites.

It's different because I made it that way. I don't know if you've noticed, but people overpay for security in many industries (IT especially, contract rates are 30-40% above the full-time equivalent). The only time you'd need to overpay for security is when you NEED the steady paycheck... like when you have a mortgage.
There's nothing special about what I'm doing.

But it's not the norm. I'm not criticising that - all credit to you, but it's not the situation most people are in. I agree, you have to cater for some future events such as higher taxes or interest rates, but the bank would have already done that for you prior to approving your home loan. Back in 2007 they usually added a 2.5% interest rate buffer.

But obviously a $300 a week loss is just too much.

I'm sorry, I completely missed that. My apologies.

Nah - it's all good. I should have made that point more clearly

 

[tech/a]

So you're still doing these good deeds yes?

Flicking employees $500 for positive feedback?

Paying bonuses out of the blue?

So... you don't need the laws to change right?

Bonuses aren't out of the blue
clients don't comment about your staff unless
they are exceptional---would you?

I don't care what laws are changed.
Nor do those who work with us.
We will continue looking after our people and they will look after
the company and their interests!
I cant do anything to influence
law changes one way or the other.

 

[PZ99]

I don't care what laws are changed.
Nor do those who work with us.
We will continue looking after our people and they will look after
the company and their interests!
I cant do anything to influence
law changes one way or the other.

Right, and that was my point. Australia was doing just fine and there was no need to change the IR laws by removing basic protections for employees.

 

[tech/a]

Right, and that was my point. Australia was doing just fine and there was no need to change the IR laws by removing basic protections for employees.

And my point is control your own destiny

 

[Smurf1976]

I have never robbed a bank.

I have also never driven whilst drunk, raped anyone or committed murder.

Despite not having done these things I have no objection to society having laws precluding them and police to enforce those laws. This is because whilst I and indeed most people have no intention of doing the wrong thing it is reality that a small % of society has a very different view.

So we have laws which at least attempt to keep your business’s money safe from thieves. We have laws to reduce the chance of you being killed on the road. We have laws to protect your daughter from a minority of men with bad intentions. We have laws to protect your father from being shot by whoever doesn’t like him. And so on.

Likewise it seems entirely reasonable to me that we have laws to protect innocent people from the small % of bad employers and managers who exist. I see no harm in that.

That said, I do agree with those saying to control your own destiny but at the same time I’m well aware that not everyone is in a position to do so.

 

[PZ99]

And my point is control your own destiny

Most people don't have that luxury.

 

[HelloU]

I have never robbed a bank.

I have also never driven whilst drunk, raped anyone or committed murder.

Despite not having done these things I have no objection to society having laws precluding them and police to enforce those laws. This is because whilst I and indeed most people have no intention of doing the wrong thing it is reality that a small % of society has a very different view.

So we have laws which at least attempt to keep your business’s money safe from thieves. We have laws to reduce the chance of you being killed on the road. We have laws to protect your daughter from a minority of men with bad intentions. We have laws to protect your father from being shot by whoever doesn’t like him. And so on.

Likewise it seems entirely reasonable to me that we have laws to protect innocent people from the small % of bad employers and managers who exist. I see no harm in that.

That said, I do agree with those saying to control your own destiny but at the same time I’m well aware that not everyone is in a position to do so.

simple rules to offer basic protections ..........imagine what it would be like if simple minimum rules were only applied in an adhoc manner ........but I digress from your bucket list thoughts.



(joke mate if u did not get that .... the bucket bit that is, the following the minimum rules bit I am all for ....like with competition entries )

 

[tech/a]

Most people don't have that luxury.

Everyone was born naked and penniless

So everyone controls their destiny.
It’s not until they look back at the
Decisions they made that they realise
How good or bad those decisions were.

Controlling your own destiny isn’t a luxury.
Certainly not in this country.

 

[PZ99]

"Everyone was born naked and penniless"

That doesn't mean anything.

I didn't control where I was born, what school I went to, how rich / poor my parents were.

I had no control over my destiny until I was at least in my 30's.

I had no control over Govt policy.

 

[Skate]

Everyone was born naked and penniless

So everyone controls their destiny.
It’s not until they look back at the
Decisions they made that they realise
How good or bad those decisions were.

Controlling your own destiny isn’t a luxury.
Certainly not in this country.

Hi tech/a

A great read with a different perspective on what controls our destiny...

Fooled by Randomness - The hidden Role of Chance in life & in the Markets
Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Fooled by Randomness is an investigation of luck, uncertainty, probability, human error, risk, and decision-making in a world we don’t understand.

Skate.

 

[tech/a]

"Everyone was born naked and penniless"

That doesn't mean anything.

I didn't control where I was born, what school I went to, how rich / poor my parents were.

I had no control over my destiny until I was at least in my 30's.

I had no control over Govt policy.

Ok

You controlled how much you were involved in life
You don’t need successful parents
You don’t need a private school
It doesn’t matter where you were born ( in Australia )

Your destiny need not be controlled by any Govt if your in Australia

Have it and two others of teleb

 

[Smurf1976]

If your job is common, you are located in a city and there is a shortage of the skills you have then you’ve got a fair bit of control.

If you have an unusual combination of skills or abilities then you may have a huge amount of control.

On the other hand, well if you’re a Police Officer then you’ve got precisely zero alternative employers without relocating or changing career.

If you’re in a country town then any full time employment is hard to come by.

If you’re a tradie and need a start after 9am each day due to family responsibilities then good luck. Hard to believe though it is, even in 2018 there’s still an awful lot of employers with rigid hours that aren’t at all family friendly.

If you work in oil refining, media, airlines or countless other things moving to an alternative employer means relocation and actually getting a job with the one or two other companies in the industry.

There are certainly some who can call the shots but many who would face considerable difficulties in practice.

 

[PZ99]

Ok

You controlled how much you were involved in life
You don’t need successful parents
You don’t need a private school
It doesn’t matter where you were born ( in Australia )

Your destiny need not be controlled by any Govt if your in Australia

So you're saying that someone from Mt Druitt with a broken family and a poor upbringing along with a simplistic education could've had the same control over their destiny as someone with an exemplary education in an elitist establishment school leading to a career commensurate with all the right connections?

It's a perfect world right?

 

[sptrawler]

All this makes the assumption that all workers are good and just want to help the employer, I have had several instances of workers that take great joy, in causing mayhem in the workplace.
If it is a large organisation getting rid of them is near on impossible, it brings the moral of the workplace down, it brings the productivity down and it ends up with the better workers moving on.
But I guess that isn't what the debate is about, it is about bad employers.
It is a bit like, you never get bad tenants, only bad landlords.
Just the way life is in Australia these days.

 

[sptrawler]

So you're saying that someone from Mt Druitt with a broken family and a poor upbringing along with a simplistic education could've had the same control over their destiny as someone with an exemplary education in an elitist establishment school leading to a career commensurate with all the right connections?

It's a perfect world right?

Well the CEO I mentioned earlier, came from the poorest area of Perth, left school at 15 and did an apprenticeship. So where you come from has less impact than you think, everyone is looking for a reason to excuse poor application and performance.
But like I said that is Australia at the moment, we are sliding down the slope and everyone is making excuses for not putting on the brakes and demanding better. IMO
Working conditions have improved a huge amount from the 1970's, our wages are near the highest in the World, we have to import labor because unemployed don't want to go bush. Yet all we do is bitch and complain.