More Religious Nuts

Sunder said:

I rarely log in at work to post, but since this is so deluded and inflammatory, I thought I'd answer before it slips by behind another dozen pages.

Care to quote any verses to back any of your beliefs about the bible? "Thou shalt not kill" is NOT one of the 10 commandments. Every english version, except the oldest has "You shall not murder".

You are criticising a fantasy version of Christianity, an illusion that you have created, to justify your attacks on Christianity.

"As if you'd follow those evolutionists, they believe you should kill the weak so the species will be stronger... How... distastefully unethical." I've never heard an Atheist say that, yet, taking the basic principles of what atheists believe, (and I am making an assumption that atheists actually believe in evolution - otherwise they'd be agnostics), it'd be pretty easy to ridicule something on a false assertion. Likewise, I have never met a Christian that beleives it's okay to blow people up, dash babies on rocks, or kill drunkards sons. Not that I see anywhere in the bible that any of that behaviour is advocated anyway.

If Christians did to Atheist beliefs what Atheists did to Christian beliefs, this is what we'd be hearing a lot more of.

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Inflammatory? Only because some of you Christians become inflamed when people point out some of the less palatable truths about your Bible and your religion.

Deluded? How so? I'm telling you some of what's in the Bible, not what I think is in the Bible, what actually is in the Bible.
OK - it's some time since I studied the Bible and I'm no doubt a little hazy on the exact wording. It makes little difference whether it says 'Thou shalt not kill', or whether it's 'You shall not murder'.
As for dashing babies on rocks, I have no idea if that's in the Bible - I never claimed it was.

'Kill your son if he's a drunkard' - you have trouble believing that's in there? I'm not surprised - I found it difficult to believe myself until I read it. I first became aware of it after reading the 'Letters To The Editor' section of a newspaper. One of the letters was written by someone who was complaining about being frequently harassed by Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on his door. He told of how he challenged them by quoting the passage in the Bible that says "If your son is a drunkard, you should take him outside the city gates and stone him to death". (I'm working from memory here - I mightn't have it correct word for word, but that's close enough to what it says).
He quoted the chapter and verse etc, so I looked it up in my Bible to see if it really did say that. Sure enough, there it was.

Sorry I can't quote the chapter and verse numbers so you can look it up - they've long since left my memory. But I assure you, the words are there - no fantasy or illusion on my part. The words are there if you care to find them.

Like you, I've never met a Christian who believes it's okay to blow people up, dash babies on rocks, or kill drunkards sons. Most of the Christians I know, and there are many, are good people who are far too decent and intelligent to follow some of the more unsavoury advice and commands in the Bible.
Like all intelligent people, they choose the good of what they have to work with, and reject the bad.

I'm not attacking every aspect of Christianity, I'm simply challenging some of the beliefs and the more controversial issues in Christianity.
Which reminds me.....I'm still waiting for you to answer my earlier post in which I asked how you know God exists, and if he does exist, who or what created him?

bunyip said:

It makes little difference whether it says 'Thou shalt not kill', or whether it's 'You shall not murder'.

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The quick difference between the two, is that the State was still instructed to use capital punishment at times, and of course soldiers were allowed to kill.

"Do not commit murder", does not exclude these two examples, it is much more specific than "do not kill"

refined silver said:

The quick difference between the two, is that the State was still instructed to use capital punishment at times, and of course soldiers were allowed to kill.

"Do not commit murder", does not exclude these two examples, it is much more specific than "do not kill"

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From my understanding the commandment does infer 'murder' not just plain old 'kill'.

So, capital punishment is cool.

However, the commandment was made up by Moses and directed towards the Israelites who were then instructed by Yahweh, through Moses, to murder thousands of people.

So much for that commandment.

Their actions were not just murder, but genocidal.

bunyip said:

I'm not attacking every aspect of Christianity, I'm simply challenging some of the beliefs and the more controversial issues in Christianity.
Which reminds me.....I'm still waiting for you to answer my earlier post in which I asked how you know God exists, and if he does exist, who or what created him?

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Sounds as if you are Bunyip - the bible was written for a different age and you can't take every word as though its absolute. If you wrote a book today about our society & someone reads it 1000 years from now, I'm sure we would look not much better than Ghingus Khan.

I measure Christianity by their actions - religious groups predominantly run charities, sacrificing their time more than most.

Cheers

Buckeroo said:

Sounds as if you are Bunyip - the bible was written for a different age and you can't take every word as though its absolute. If you wrote a book today about our society & someone reads it 1000 years from now, I'm sure we would look not much better than Ghingus Khan.

I measure Christianity by their actions - religious groups predominantly run charities, sacrificing their time more than most.

Cheers

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Like you, I too measure Christianity by the actions of Christians. That's why I've been happy to acknowledge on some of the other threads that sometimes great things happen when Christians get together. I suggest you have a look at 'The Beauty In Religion' thread where you'll see two real life stories that I've related from my own experiences......stories that pay the highest compliment to Christians and Christianity.
You'll note that in my previous post on this thread I acknowledged that most of the Christians I know are decent and intelligent people.

No, I'm not attacking every aspect of Christianity, only the aspects that are contradictory or incite people to kill, or Biblical stories that glorify murder and violence.
On more than one occasion on this forum I've stated that there's a lot of good in Christianity.

You can't take every word of the Bible as though it's absolute? How right you are...there's much in the Bible that's rubbish and needs to be culled out. Intelligent and decent people do just that by ignoring the Biblical rules and instructions that go against all reasonable codes of decency.
That's why I've said that the Bible needs re-writing - it's very much outdated and is badly in need of renovation.

What amuses me is the exceptionally naive people who claim that the Bible is 'the word or God', and that they believe and follow what's written in the Bible.
But when you challenge those 'beliefs' by pointing out the inconsistencies, contradictions and the more unsavoury parts of the Bible, they duck and weave and accuse you of being inflammatory, delusional, and indulging in fantasy.

well 'Alleluia'

There's some balance in this thread

kennas said:

It's been my hobby for the good part of 20 years Sunder. Yes, it is amusing.

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Kennas , right with you brother, in fact i studied religion for years, and realised out of 10000 religions the christians regard 9999 as wrong ,after years of study i regard all 10000 as wrong.

Buckeroo said:

Sounds as if you are Bunyip - the bible was written for a different age and you can't take every word as though its absolute. If you wrote a book today about our society & someone reads it 1000 years from now, I'm sure we would look not much better than Ghingus Khan.

I measure Christianity by their actions - religious groups predominantly run charities, sacrificing their time more than most.

Cheers

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So are Financial Planners religious nuts?

gg

Sunder said:

As they say "There are no atheists in the trenches"

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Fair enough saying, I can understand why one may be reluctant to disavow a personal God DURING a war.

I was of the belief however, that many soldiers become atheists, especially after WWI.

I was talking to an Vietnam vet last night, who was seriously injured, he is not a believer

Just been watching 'Foreign Correspondent' on TV - a story about Northern Ireland.
They showed a segment where trouble erupted when Catholic kids in Belfast tried to walk through a Protestant area on their way to school.

These clowns call themselves Christians, many of them attend church regularly, both sides worship the same God and live their lives (supposedly) by the same Christian creed. Yet they hate each other like poison and will stop at nothing in their pursuit of that hatred...violent assault, fire-bombs, real bombs, murder - you name it, they'll do it.

More religious nuts.

Garpal Gumnut said:

So are Financial Planners religious nuts?

gg

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If they are wearing a robe and asking you to put some $$ into a container to be passed onto some superior being then I guess they are? Wait a minute ... sounds like the guy I see ????

awg said:

Fair enough saying, I can understand why one may be reluctant to disavow a personal God DURING a war.

I was of the belief however, that many soldiers become atheists, especially after WWI.

I was talking to an Vietnam vet last night, who was seriously injured, he is not a believer

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And I believe there were quite a few Jews who abandoned their belief in God after World War 2. Their reasoning was that their God, the so-called God of compassion and love, abandoned them in their darkest hour by ignoring their pleas for help when millions of them were being imprisoned and killed by the Nazis. Therefore, as they saw it, either the existence of God was a complete fallacy, or if he did exist, then he'd shown himself to be such a heartless and uncaring bastard that he was no longer worthy of following.

Garpal Gumnut said:

So are Financial Planners religious nuts?

gg

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Maybe Manny Cassamatis can answer that question for us!

Interesting working paper on Religion and Crime,

http://home.uchicago.edu/~psheaton/workingpapers/religionandcrime.pdf

Btw, I think alot of the previous comments have been extremely emotional and biased, to the point this thread is becoming a ramp for atheism, with no other argument, than that the loudest wins.

Atheists provide some unbiased research and stats to at least provide an argument.

OK, couldn't give a #### either way what people believe, but how does the cruelty of some humans prove or disprove a God?

Where does it say that God will give you a wonderful life free from @ssholes?

I mean, the Bible itself is full of cruelty. Even Jesus himself nailed to a cross, many apostles imprisoned and crucified as well.

Hypocrites. If folks want to believe in what the Bible/Talmud/whatever says, they should take note of what it says. Religion is all about suffering FFS.

People who ask "how can God let x happen" need a serious smack in the head. They want free choice and expect "God" to remove it selectively for their personal benefit. How can religious people believe in an afterlife and sweat about their Earth experience so much?

That is just cognitive dissonance.

bunyip said:

Maybe Manny Cassamatis can answer that question for us!

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After reading the "Storm Thread" i do believe that he, and a good number of the SICAG site developers actually think he is the one and true messiah.
It's stand to reason , he sold them incredible stories that they lapped up and when put to the test , the wheels fell off.

wayneL said:

OK, couldn't give a #### either way what people believe, but how does the cruelty of some humans prove or disprove a God?

Where does it say that God will give you a wonderful life free from @ssholes?

I mean, the Bible itself is full of cruelty. Even Jesus himself nailed to a cross, many apostles imprisoned and crucified as well.

Hypocrites. If folks want to believe in what the Bible/Talmud/whatever says, they should take note of what it says. Religion is all about suffering FFS.

People who ask "how can God let x happen" need a serious smack in the head. They want free choice and expect "God" to remove it selectively for their personal benefit. How can religious people believe in an afterlife and sweat about their Earth experience so much?

That is just cognitive dissonance.

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Good post Wayne, agree.

weird said:

Interesting working paper on Religion and Crime,

http://home.uchicago.edu/~psheaton/workingpapers/religionandcrime.pdf

Btw, I think alot of the previous comments have been extremely emotional and biased, to the point this thread is becoming a ramp for atheism, with no other argument, than that the loudest wins.

Atheists provide some unbiased research and stats to at least provide an argument.

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No emotion or bias here weird. Just plain old english for all to understand.

How can you have an "unbiased reserach" ?? The person writing it has a slant prior to providing evidence. Ktrianta and Sunder wandered off on some "arbiter and reference absolute point" nonsense. Some consummate CRAP about it is OK to blow yourself up in the name of religion because they lived in a country where this is apparently OK because my morals did not understand it??? WTF ... no I say WTF ???

Nothing to do with atheism or religion or agnostics or

No offense Trainspotter, but in your post, it contains nothing which provides evidence that any mainstream religion encourages their members to do any 'nutty' things which involves criminal activity towards others.

People do crazy things, in the name of religion or even full moons. But 'they' ultimately are responsible for their action, whether it was a full moon or not.

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. A narrower definition includes only those who believe that deities do not exist, and excludes those who hold no position on the question (agnostics and other non-theists). In other words, an “atheist” can be defined as either:

1) A person who does not believe that at least one god exists; or
2) A person who has a positive belief that no god or gods exist.

Nothing to do with morals or absolutes or arbiters. To ask an atheist to prove that God does not exist is liking asking a religious NUT to prove that He does. How can you argue either way? He does. No ... He doesnt. And you want us to prove stats on this?? Hmmmm .... A book was written 500 years after a man by the name of Jesus Christ helped the Jews kick the Romans out of their country and for this he became an idol?? Ok then, King Arthur actually slayed a fire breathing dragon. For this he was the greatest King and some knights and a round table was named after him.

One all.