Israel - Palestine

[Macquack]

Noco, can you please refrain from posting off topic "I hate all muslims" - "cut and paste" - "Please don't delete this until you send it on" irrelevance.

The topic is "Re: Israel - Palestine".

 

[banco]

Without Arabs scholars, scientists, mathematicians, astronomers... the World and the West probably couldn't even do maths, couldn't even make a proper sail for their ships etc. etc.; the Renaissance would't have happened because without Arab's translations of the Greek's classics, they would have been lost forever.

And that's just from me as a pedestrian reader of history.
Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.

They peaked hundreds of years ago and it's been all downhill from there.

 

[SirRumpole]

Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.

I was under the impression that it was Greece and Rome.

 

[luutzu]

Not while the Arabs are the disunited rabble that they are now. But Israel is only 8 million people against how many Arabs ?

"Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."
- John F. Kennedy

It was thinking that the Soviets are human like ourselves that prevented the Cuban Missile Crisis from turning into WW3 with nukes.

If JFK thought that the Russians are barbarians and their Communist doctrines preaches annihilations of Western Capilisatists at all costs, I don't think you and I and our children would still be around anymore.

----


You seem to think that all the Arabs and Arab Sheiks and leaders does all day is pray, beat their women and dream of killing Jews.

Not only is that offensive, don't you think it also put the Jewish people a bit too high up the priority scale?

If what you're saying is true, why don't Israel go and bomb Germany, or kill all people of Aryan blood... 'cause from history, some of those people actually say and do kill most of the Jews.

What did the Arabs ever done to the Jewish people?

The Palestinians let in the Zionist Jews in the early 1900s into their country - Palestine - where they can set up camps and do their Zionist thing on the land their Bible said is theirs; During WW2 when no other country were willing to take in Jewish refugees, Palestine did took a lot of them in...

It is only when the UN decided to split Palestine into two states that the Palestinians fought back... and keep trying until 1967 when they and the Arab world know it's all over.

I think the Arabs and the world are quite realists and know that a strong power will take over a weak power and decides world affairs. All they're asking is some dignity and rights to self rule... but if you keep destroying their lives and their cities... they will take it for now too because there's no other choice... but does that make it right and moral to do that to people?

 

[luutzu]

I was under the impression that it was Greece and Rome.

No it was Babylon/Persia.

The Persian empire expanded and almost took over Greek civilisations - twice (Sparta and the Marathon); Then Alexander the Great, after his father united, i think, almost all Greek city states, Alexander finish the job and challenge and defeat the Persian empire... He died young and his empire was divided into some 5 kingdoms among his generals - one of which was the Ptolemy, ancestors of Cleopatra.

Before Rome was even a fledgling unified Italian Republic, the superpower in the Mediterranean was Carthage - probably splinters of Greek and North African part of Alexander's empire...

Carthage's Hannibal almost took over Rome but after series of defeats, Scipio Africanus of Rome burn Carthage to the ground and the Roman empire starts to dominate.

 

[SirRumpole]

No it was Babylon/Persia.

The Persian empire expanded and almost took over Greek civilisations - twice (Sparta and the Marathon); Then Alexander the Great, after his father united, i think, almost all Greek city states, Alexander finish the job and challenge and defeat the Persian empire... He died young and his empire was divided into some 5 kingdoms among his generals - one of which was the Ptolemy, ancestors of Cleopatra.

Before Rome was even a fledgling unified Italian Republic, the superpower in the Mediterranean was Carthage - probably splinters of Greek and North African part of Alexander's empire...

Carthage's Hannibal almost took over Rome but after series of defeats, Scipio Africanus of Rome burn Carthage to the ground and the Roman empire starts to dominate.

I wouldn't actually call Alexander the Great "civilised". He just went around conquering people.

 

[luutzu]

They peaked hundreds of years ago and it's been all downhill from there.

"Empires wax and wane; States cleave asunder and coalesce."
- Lo Kuan-Chung (Romance of the Three Kingdoms).

The Chinese once dominated their half of the world; So were the Italian/Romans; So where the Mongolian under Genghis Khan whose empire dominate East, Middle East, and the West were spared because it was deemed uncivilised and not a top priority compare to the middle eastern kingdoms...

The British once dominate most of the world, so were the Dutch, the French with Napoleon master Europe and after Napoleon colonises parts of Africa, the Pacifics, SouthEast Asia (Indochina) etc etc

The European Jews were almost completely slaughtered, some of their descendants now slaughter some of the Arabs...

Empires wax and wane... No race of people can claim to be inherently superior to another race; and no evidence of a race or a culture having peaked and will just be in continuous decline while another were weak but now will forever dominate.


Just as a country will lost half its ability and human resources if it barred women from education and rights to pursue their happiness, so much more will a state that discriminate and suppress an entire race of people.

To be so racist that you deemed nothing worthy can ever come from people of certain blood, you're losing much more than just a second opinions and perspective when it comes to dealing with a world filled with people not of your blood; To then expend your nation's blood and treasure and trained your youth to suppress and oppress another people will lead to a nation filled with unkind souls; To tell lies to your people and to the world will make fools out of your sons and allies, drive the good and the intelligent people away from you and your causes...

A nation that proclaim itself righteous while committing crimes against humanity... what other end will it meet but self destruction?

 

[luutzu]

I wouldn't actually call Alexander the Great "civilised". He just went around conquering people.

I didn't say he was or wasn't.
And you're probably right about him. But just like the Mongolian after him, they won wars but do not abolish cultures... they adopted the cultures of their subject and soon become part of them.

I meant to say that the Arabs/Persians were civilised long before or at least at the same time as the Greeks... then came Cartage and the Romans.

Aristotle taught Alexander, and his friends, that the Persians are uncivilised barbarians... he questioned how could barbarian savages almost control the Greeks. Then when he took over Persia, he adopted its cultures and civilisations.

 

[DeepState]

Nuclear weapons. This is what happens if a 150kt nuclear surface explosion, launched via a commonly available delivery system, hits Ramallah and the wind is blowing the wrong way (from an Israeli perspective). Tel Aviv gets a tan. Use of nukes in Gaza is ridiculous. How powerful is a nuclear deterrent when hitting the target blasts you as well for a wide circumference of wind direction? In this case, the nuclear option is not available to Israel unless it hits an ally of Hamas to dry up supply lines or something along those lines, inviting a hail of world fury upon itself.
.



If the nation was on its knees and in the last throes of battle, a strike on Cairo would be possible. Similarly with Tehran. Hence the nukes. In this case, they cannot be used.

 

[SirRumpole]

What did the Arabs ever done to the Jewish people?

In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.

 

[SirRumpole]

You seem to think that all the Arabs and Arab Sheiks and leaders does all day is pray, beat their women and dream of killing Jews.

Do I ? I'd like not to have people think they can read my mind or put words in my mouth.

The Arabs are disunited in their attitude towards Israel, otherwise they would have taken over long ago.

Not only is that offensive, don't you think it also put the Jewish people a bit too high up the priority scale?

Priority for what ? The Israelis are 8 million, the Palestinians are 4 million. Who should have priority ?

 

[DeepState]

All wars are crimes. Here's some perspective showing 'just' battle deaths from wars involving inter-state conflict since WWII:



Gaza strip Palestinian deaths are > 1,242 with 70-80% estimated to be civilian. That would put battle deaths at around 311 for (sickly) comparison.

 

[Julia]

I don't want to argue for one side or the other in this thread. I find it all far too complicated and can see the huge difficulties of both sides.

But luutzu, you seem to be ascribing to bellenuit a particular stance which I don't believe he/she has taken.
On the contrary, I've now read several of bellenuit's posts which show an objectivity and appreciation of both sides not expressed by anyone else.

The only other observation I'd dare to make is the number of posts (reflected in general media coverage) of this war in comparison with what seems to me to be a far greater number of people killed, tortured, and driven from their homes in Syria. I suppose because the Israelis are not involved in that, it provokes less interest.

 

[SirRumpole]

I suppose because the Israelis are not involved in that, it provokes less interest.

The media and the public seem to think (with some justification) that Syria is one lot of crazies against another lot of crazies and whatever happens there is the result of lawlessness and lack of respect for life on both sides, and there is not a lot anyone can do about it.

In Israel/Gaza we have a country that purports to be civilised shelling schools, homes and refugee camps. That obviously brings up difficult questions of what action the rest of the world should take against Israel for these atrocities, given that the Palestinians are not entirely blameless either as they started firing rockets first.

Unfortunately, yes a very complicated situation. There are extremists on both sides, both elected by the people of the respective countries/territories.

 

[noco]

The media and the public seem to think (with some justification) that Syria is one lot of crazies against another lot of crazies and whatever happens there is the result of lawlessness and lack of respect for life on both sides, and there is not a lot anyone can do about it.

In Israel/Gaza we have a country that purports to be civilised shelling schools, homes and refugee camps. That obviously brings up difficult questions of what action the rest of the world should take against Israel for these atrocities, given that the Palestinians are not entirely blameless either as they started firing rockets first.

Unfortunately, yes a very complicated situation. There are extremists on both sides, both elected by the people of the respective countries/territories.

But we all know Hamas have their rocket launchers in the schools and hospitals and tunnels leading under them.....Hamas wants Israel to fire back at the rocket launchers which have human shields so they get publicity and sympathy from the media.....those bad Israelis....Hamas have been reported as firing their own rockets into populated areas in the Gaza a strip and blaming the Iraeli for it......Hamas does not care about the loss of life.

 

[chiff]

Ironic that Israel has become the neo-Nazis,delving out collective punishment on any that oppose their occupations and invasions.
I was inculcated with films depicting partisans as heroes when they opposed the Nazi occupations.

 

[luutzu]

In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.

Israel is what you'd call a regional hegemon - the master of the region. It's armed to the heavens. Now and then a terrorist managed to kill a few of its citizens... but to see that as any country, or any Arab country, could push them out of Palestine is not realistic.

Israel now own 80% of historic Palestine. The Palestinians, knowing they're in a hopeless situation, has since 1967 agreed to settled for the remaining 20% of what was their homeland... that's the 1967 border there and still the Israeli said no and keep on expanding its settlements, divide and conquer the Palestinians... all the while playing the victim.

 

[luutzu]

In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.

If somebody comes over and take your house and send your family packing to the garden shed and bring you food and water so you won't die.. you'd probably wish them ill too.

Why does every country in the world have armed forces? Are they all war mongers?

If you lock your doors and say have a gun or two, does it mean you hate the world and want to kill your neighbours?

Why must the Palestinians have their doors locked on the outside and their land and water and airspace being monitored like someone else's prisons?

 

[luutzu]

I don't want to argue for one side or the other in this thread. I find it all far too complicated and can see the huge difficulties of both sides.

But luutzu, you seem to be ascribing to bellenuit a particular stance which I don't believe he/she has taken.
On the contrary, I've now read several of bellenuit's posts which show an objectivity and appreciation of both sides not expressed by anyone else.

The only other observation I'd dare to make is the number of posts (reflected in general media coverage) of this war in comparison with what seems to me to be a far greater number of people killed, tortured, and driven from their homes in Syria. I suppose because the Israelis are not involved in that, it provokes less interest.

I admit i might have gotten a bit impatient and sarcastic sometimes, but what Bellinuit has been saying, and the article s/he points to to prove the point, clearly said that what is happening to the Palestinians and the children are horrible, BUT Israel is in an impossible position because... i'm assuming, it has to defend itself and Hamas use human shields and the like.

I don't think I was unfair to say that if Bellenuit believe that, then perhaps he should do a bit of research - not from columnists or opinion pieces, but look at research done by the UN, human rights group, professors of political science etc.

I have never commented on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict until now actually. Not because it's Israel and I don't like Israel and have a thing for the Palestinians.

Like all wars and conflicts raging on now, I have little interests and no knowledge to comment on them... I can't speak for others but though I have seen a couple of documentaries on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, notably "Check Point" a while back, I still have no opinions until this year when the conflict just keep repeating every couple of years and so many innocent people are killed.

I googled and youtube, staying away from any commentaries or organisations that might provide one side or another... and so it goes to the academics and the historians.

After these broad overviews, my assumptions that Israel has only been fighting for its survival, the Arabs in Palestine are terrorists etc etc... all these are lies; the assumption that Israel represents the Jewish faith, that it is a liberal democracy where people are treated equal like how it is in Australia, the idea that Israel is fighting for values that I treasure as an Australian against the Arab hordes... these are lies.

So if Israel want to oppress other people, I'd rather it doesn't do it saying it is fighting wars for survival and projecting and protecting my values. Don't do it in my name or in the name of my beliefs.

As to other wars and other conflicts I don't comment on... I'm no Chomsky. I can comment a lot on the Vietnam War but that's about it.

 

[luutzu]

Do I ? I'd like not to have people think they can read my mind or put words in my mouth.

The Arabs are disunited in their attitude towards Israel, otherwise they would have taken over long ago.



Priority for what ? The Israelis are 8 million, the Palestinians are 4 million. Who should have priority ?

Priority for their own life and their family's livelihood.
No matter how much the Arabs just hate the Jews, I still can't imagine them just sitting around hating Jews and thinking of wars to kill them. They got other priorities, like getting a job, like listening to music, studies, take care of their family....