Israel - Palestine

[Garpal Gumnut]

Have a look at DB008's post, Israel is doing alright for itself.

Too right Israel is doing ok for itself.

Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times.

Israel has expanded each time it has been attacked.

I don't see why the Arab Nations cannot look after the Palestinians.

I'd back Israel any old day over their foes.

gg

 

[luutzu]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

I cannot understand how there is so much sympathy for Hamas, an organisation whose aim is to remove or kill every Jew from Israel/Palestine.

The Arabs need to look at a map of the area.

Israel takes up a tiny area geographically.

Arabs need to man up and make peace with Israel.

This conflict will persist otherwise.

gg

Asking the Arabs to take the Palestinians in is like asking White people or Brown or Yellow people to take their kind in when another group want to take their land.

Those Palestinians rich or fortunate enough to be able to get out have already done so, long ago. Those who are there now have no where to go. They can't even cross the roads without the Israeli's saying so.

Most importantly, it's their land, why should they leave? I mean, whatever borders were in 1948 or established by the UN for Israel and Palestine in 1967 [?]... Israel ignores them and build settlements anyway, or use the Bible and religious "facts" and put claim to any town mentioned in it as Israel's.

With the new and ever expanding Jewish settlements... they don't just build a few thousand houses on Palestinian land, they bulldoze everything within, i can't recall the exact number, but they clear a safety perimeter around those settlements - on Palestinians land. And to get to those new settlements, they build roads, on which no Palestinians are permitted to use.

What you call peace most people call oppression, colonisation.

 

[noco]

+1.
Israel is even bombing refugee shelters and hospitals. How can that be justified?
Thanks for illustration, DB.

Julia, from what I understand, Hamas have their rocket launches strategically placed near schools and hospitals as a human shield to avoid retaliation by Israel.......I believe Israel drops leaflets of an intended attack on these rocket positions to avoid civilian injury......Hamas do not care if a few woman and children are killed because they know they will get world publicity curtsey of the media....anything to make Israel look bad in the eyes of the world.

Hamas have something like 11 tunnels under Israel where they transport there rockets into position without being detected

I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.

 

[bellenuit]

Too right Israel is doing ok for itself.

Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times.

Agreed GG. Again reiterating that I think Israel may be going beyond acceptable defence strategies, we should never forget what Israel is up against. This is a couple of years old, but not out of date and symptomatic of Hamas thinking.

PA Mufti: Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098

 

[IFocus]

What a mess never to be solved ever.

Israel, land seized off people who had been living there for generations and forced into camps because off a book that said they were the chosen ones. Now a county militarized and backed by the biggest industrialised military complex thats ever existed on this planet.

Palestinian areas populated by lunatics who kill each other along tribal, ethic and religious lines going back generations now forced into areas marginalised by Israel who decide who and what goes in and out and that the Palestinians cannot fish off their own shores.

Israel promotes and ferments destabilization in the Palestinian lands allowing hard liners to move in and force moderates out (moderates will bring stability and thats a problem for Israel) . Hard liners supported, financed and armed by regional /outside powers wanting influence and leverage against other regional powers and the US.

There is no moral high ground for any side to stand on.


Its a complete mess and in 1000 years time they will still be killing each other in the region just like they were 1000 years ago.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Agreed GG. Again reiterating that I think Israel may be going beyond acceptable defence strategies, we should never forget what Israel is up against. This is a couple of years old, but not out of date and symptomatic of Hamas thinking.

PA Mufti: Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098

What a mess never to be solved ever.

Israel, land seized off people who had been living there for generations and forced into camps because off a book that said they were the chosen ones. Now a county militarized and backed by the biggest industrialised military complex thats ever existed on this planet.

Palestinian areas populated by lunatics who kill each other along tribal, ethic and religious lines going back generations now forced into areas marginalised by Israel who decide who and what goes in and out and that the Palestinians cannot fish off their own shores.

Israel promotes and ferments destabilization in the Palestinian lands allowing hard liners to move in and force moderates out (moderates will bring stability and thats a problem for Israel) . Hard liners supported, financed and armed by regional /outside powers wanting influence and leverage against other regional powers and the US.

There is no moral high ground for any side to stand on.


Its a complete mess and in 1000 years time they will still be killing each other in the region just like they were 1000 years ago.

I agree with you both.

If it came to push/shove, I would support the Israelis over the Palestinians though.

gg

 

[McLovin]

I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.

I think they've had 70 years of provocation.

 

[noco]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

Asking the Arabs to take the Palestinians in is like asking White people or Brown or Yellow people to take their kind in when another group want to take their land.

Those Palestinians rich or fortunate enough to be able to get out have already done so, long ago. Those who are there now have no where to go. They can't even cross the roads without the Israeli's saying so.

Most importantly, it's their land, why should they leave? I mean, whatever borders were in 1948 or established by the UN for Israel and Palestine in 1967 [?]... Israel ignores them and build settlements anyway, or use the Bible and religious "facts" and put claim to any town mentioned in it as Israel's.

With the new and ever expanding Jewish settlements... they don't just build a few thousand houses on Palestinian land, they bulldoze everything within, i can't recall the exact number, but they clear a safety perimeter around those settlements - on Palestinians land. And to get to those new settlements, they build roads, on which no Palestinians are permitted to use.

What you call peace most people call oppression, colonisation.

From what I understand, the 6 day war on Israel in 1967 by Egypt and other Arab states resulted in a humiliating defeat for the Arabs....they did not succeed in demolishing Israel......General Moshe Dihan had received good intelligence on the impending invasion by the Arabs and was well and truly ready for the confrontation.

It was at that stage Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights......Israel eventually relinquished the Gaza Strip back to the Palestinians but continued to occupy the other two areas until this day mainly for strategic reasons........Whether that was right or wrong is not for to say.

I stand corrected if the above information is wrong because I am relying upon my memory of events at the time.

 

[luutzu]

Too right Israel is doing ok for itself.

Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times.

...

gg

You sure about that?

Would a non-Jewish citizen be treated the same as a Jewish tribesman in Israel?
Would Israel ever separate the State from the Jewish faith?

That doesn't sound like any liberal Western democracies that i know of.

 

[luutzu]

....

I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.

I saw an interview where a Jewish guy, living in Tel Aviv, said that how the conflict is painted by Israel to the Israeli and the world is this:

- Israel is going about its business, Hamas and the Palestinians fired rockets at them, they therefore are forced to defend themselves. Regrettably, given Hamas using its people as human shields, what can Israel do but have to defend itself and its people.

He said that when painted, and when seen that way, of course Hamas is asking for it, of course the Palestinians will get killed because no surgical strikes that take out a building couldn't also cause "collateral damage".

Then he points out that if you put context into why those rockets were fired, you'd see things completely differently.

Forget about how Israel was established on Palestinian land, how the Palestinians were pushed and killed to make way; forget about the new settlements just keep on expanding... and just look at how 3-4 generations of Palestinians have been treated in the past 50 years.

There are checkpoints everywhere, trade embargoes, closed borders... and on top of it, there are systematic terrorism by the IDF on the Palestinians during peace time.

In an interview with a former IDF soldier, who head the group "breaking the silence" [?] - where former IDF soldiers come together to share and tell the world the kind of things they were trained to do. He said that his unit, assigned to the West Bank, were constantly involved in operations where they were sent into Palestinian territories to show their presence - by firing guns into the air, knocks on doors, break down doors during the middle of the night to practice arresting real Palestinians.

And he said he thought it's only his unit, but it's the same from every soldier he met.

 

[luutzu]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

From what I understand, the 6 day war on Israel in 1967 by Egypt and other Arab states resulted in a humiliating defeat for the Arabs....they did not succeed in demolishing Israel......General Moshe Dihan had received good intelligence on the impending invasion by the Arabs and was well and truly ready for the confrontation.

It was at that stage Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights......Israel eventually relinquished the Gaza Strip back to the Palestinians but continued to occupy the other two areas until this day mainly for strategic reasons........Whether that was right or wrong is not for to say.

I stand corrected if the above information is wrong because I am relying upon my memory of events at the time.

Secretary of War is now Secretary of Defence; Defence Minister; Department of Defence; Defence Force...

It's always defensive isn't it?

The Israeli is so weak a victim, so good at defence that it controls the entirety of what was Palestine.

I guess there's no surprise then that when Defence is defined and acted like that, dead and traumatised children is a very effective, long term defensive measure... or so it seem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a realist... but don't expect me to buy the bs about "moral high ground" and self defence fluff when you would rather level an entire building with people living in it because you suspect there's some Hamas or some rocket fired from there and it's safer for you to destroy it completely rather than... i don't know, maybe send your troops there to take a look before you possibly could wipe clean an entire family and everything they have.

I always thought that a moral person would rather let 20 guilty people go rather than risk imprisoning an innocent person. Here, it's rather an entire neighbourhood is flattened than a single ineffective rocket might be launch from it.

While I'm being realistic, it wouldn't surprised me that Israel's bi-annual Defenses on Gaza is both an economic stimulus/population control measure.

It boggles the mind that a group of people whose parents or grandparents had suffered horrible, senseless murder based on their race could one day do the same to another race of people.

I realised that that's not true for a great many Jewish people... but it seems the Israelis Zionists is suffering from some sort of psychopathic sense to over-compensate for some conceived sense of inferiority that their people are not weak and the Holocaust was not due to Jewish weaknesses - and set about proving it on the Palestinians.

We get it, no one think Jewish are inferior people. Heck, 72 Nobel laureates are of Jewish origin, if that proves something.

 

[noco]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

Secretary of War is now Secretary of Defence; Defence Minister; Department of Defence; Defence Force...

It's always defensive isn't it?

The Israeli is so weak a victim, so good at defence that it controls the entirety of what was Palestine.

I guess there's no surprise then that when Defence is defined and acted like that, dead and traumatised children is a very effective, long term defensive measure... or so it seem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a realist... but don't expect me to buy the bs about "moral high ground" and self defence fluff when you would rather level an entire building with people living in it because you suspect there's some Hamas or some rocket fired from there and it's safer for you to destroy it completely rather than... i don't know, maybe send your troops there to take a look before you possibly could wipe clean an entire family and everything they have.

I always thought that a moral person would rather let 20 guilty people go rather than risk imprisoning an innocent person. Here, it's rather an entire neighbourhood is flattened than a single ineffective rocket might be launch from it.

While I'm being realistic, it wouldn't surprised me that Israel's bi-annual Defenses on Gaza is both an economic stimulus/population control measure.

It boggles the mind that a group of people whose parents or grandparents had suffered horrible, senseless murder based on their race could one day do the same to another race of people.

I realised that that's not true for a great many Jewish people... but it seems the Israelis Zionists is suffering from some sort of psychopathic sense to over-compensate for some conceived sense of inferiority that their people are not weak and the Holocaust was not due to Jewish weaknesses - and set about proving it on the Palestinians.

We get it, no one think Jewish are inferior people. Heck, 72 Nobel laureates are of Jewish origin, if that proves something.

It seems to be a case of kill or be killed.....what choice is there?

 

[Julia]

I think they've had 70 years of provocation.

Forget about how Israel was established on Palestinian land, how the Palestinians were pushed and killed to make way; forget about the new settlements just keep on expanding... and just look at how 3-4 generations of Palestinians have been treated in the past 50 years.

There are checkpoints everywhere, trade embargoes, closed borders... and on top of it, there are systematic terrorism by the IDF on the Palestinians during peace time.

Here, it's rather an entire neighbourhood is flattened than a single ineffective rocket might be launch from it.

+1 to all above comments.
The Israelis are even bombing hospitals and refugee centres, a UN school.

It boggles the mind that a group of people whose parents or grandparents had suffered horrible, senseless murder based on their race could one day do the same to another race of people.

Perhaps such is still the passion for revenge.

 

[noco]

Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.

The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.

Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491

 

[DB008]

Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.

The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.

Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
​

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

 

[noco]

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
​

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

That says it all.

 

[luutzu]

Re: Israel - Palestinew

It seems to be a case of kill or be killed.....what choice is there?

The video below give a very good summary of the conflict, and directly answer your misconception.

While you're at it, worth checking out Norman Finkelstein's lectures and debates.

The man is of Jewish origin, his parents were Holocaust survivors, his other relations were all killed in the Holocaust. He spent his entire life researching the conflict and I find him among the most intelligent, informed and objective person I've ever listened to.

I used to think I don't have much invested in this conflict and only tend to look it up every now and then when it's on the news. I used to make the same assumptions some of you are making - that Israel is a liberal Western Democracies only defending itself while the Palestinians and all Arabs want Israel's destruction...

But if you dig a bit deeper, you'll find that if you're a fair minded person who care for right from wrong, justice from murder, or merely interested in understanding current affairs, i guaranteed you'll be angry and ashamed of the things Israel is doing in your name, claiming it to be part of what you consider justice or Jewish teaching.

If after a cursory understanding (which is all i have done) and you still believe what you're hearing from Israel, I really feel for you.

 

[luutzu]

Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.

The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.

Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491

No you're wrong there.

The current conflict (from July 8 2014), according to Dr. Stephen Waltz [?] - a professor of Political Science from Harvard and according to Dr. Finkelstein as I mentioned above, was started by Israel under the pretext of first avenging the deaths of the 3 Israeli youths murdered, and then more broadly of protecting the Israeli from Hamas.

According to Waltz, some in the Israeli media had found that the moment the 3 teenagers were kidnapped, one of them ring the Emergency line... the recording indicate the kidnapper saw this and start firing, and from the recording, it was assumed that the three youths have been killed right there.

Further, no other authority had been able to verify who kidnapped and murdered them, not then and not since. But Israeli's Netanyahu suppress that report on grounds of National security, kept their deaths silent for a few days while he sent the IDF into the West Bank to capture around 100 Hamas soldiers/leaders - Operation Brother's Keeper. Then Hamas started firing rockets and then IDF onto Gaza.

Why did he do it? Waltz and Finkelstein, separately, say that months ago, Hamas and Fatah (the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank) has come to an agreement to resolve their differences to form a unity party. Netanyahu called Washington to intervene, Washington said they want to see how this will work out; he called the EU, same answer...

So the kidnap and murder of 3 Israelis give him a perfect pretext to break up the unity, and according to NF, will allow Israel to not negotiate because it can say that the Abbas and Hamas are not working together, they do not represent the Palestinians, one of them is a terrorist organisation etc. etc.

Sounds like some lunatic conspiracy theory right? But these are from respected academics and expert on the matter, not some nut cases who hates Israel or something.

 

[luutzu]

Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491

Seriously, Israel is a nuclear armed, economically powerful, militarily is among the most advanced nation in the world - and it's backed up by the US.

Who CAN seriously do any real damage to Israel's security? China? Russia? Germany?... oh, the Palestinians.

So Hamas hates the Jews, hates Israel... are you going to kill every man and his children if his militant representative hates you? I guess you would if you can do it with impunity.

 

[luutzu]

+1 to all above comments.

Perhaps such is still the passion for revenge.

Saw a few interviews with Norman Finkelstein, particularly "the Holocaust Industry" and his research showed how the Holocaust were ab/used for money and power, guilt tripping nations, suppress criticism of Israel, shake down the Swiss Bank for some $1.4 Billion (back in the1980s/1990s), and other political purposes.

He was deeply offended by it and quote a well respected Holocaust scholar having told him he didn't go far enough in his conclusions.

An example he gave was what he called the "Swiss Bank shakedown". Where the Israeli gov't managed to get $1.4 Billions from Swiss Bank, claiming that it was money that were deposited and then stolen from the Jewish people during WW2.

He argued that 1, most Jews in Europe were poor; 2. Those that were well to do would have lost it, or most of it in the Great Depression; 3. Those that were rich still, got the heck out of Germany and would have then took their money out.

So the amount of money was inflated, the number of surviving Holocaust victims were inflated to get $1.4Billion to compensate and help their suffering... and from that, he said maybe $20 million might have been given to the victims and the rest lined the organisation's pockets.

No wonder the guy was fired and couldn't find a job at any University... and banned from Israel.