Israel - Palestine

[bellenuit]

Very conveniently, he neglects to reveal that his mother is jewish.

When asked "why don't I criticise Israel", Harris fails to be honest and just come out with the truth, which is, he is biased.

His mother, Susan Harris, was born in the US of Jewish parents and married a Quaker. She is a TV comedy writer (Benson, Golden Girls). It was a secular upbringing and religion was rarely discussed.

Sam Harris is one of the foremost and respected thinkers of our time and an insightful critic of all religions so to suggest that he must identify his secular mother's religion of birth every time he discuss religion or religious conflict is ludicrous.

From Wikipaedia: Harris was raised by a secular Jewish mother and a Quaker father, but has publicly stated that his upbringing was entirely secular.

Although many label him an atheist and he is often identified as one of the four horsemen of atheism (the others being Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens), he himself doesn't like using the term, arguing that the label is both unnecessary and a liability.

He is a critic of all religions, but particularly Islam and asserts (as I think would anyone with half a brain) that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilisation and it "is not even remotely a religion of peace". He also criticises Judaism and particularly its ancient texts and the whole concept of the state of Israel. This is from his book "The End of Faith":

The gravity of Jewish suffering over the ages, culminating in the Holocaust, makes it almost impossible to entertain any suggestion that Jews might have brought their troubles upon themselves. This is, however, in a rather narrow sense, the truth. [...] the ideology of Judaism remains a lightning rod for intolerance to this day. [...] Jews, insofar as they are religious, believe that they are bearers of a unique covenant with God. As a consequence, they have spent the last two thousand years collaborating with those who see them as different by seeing themselves as irretrievably so. Judaism is as intrinsically divisive, as ridiculous in its literalism, and as at odds with the civilizing insights of modernity as any other religion. Jewish settlers, by exercising their "freedom of belief" on contested land, are now one of the principal obstacles to peace in the Middle East.

I would think if you are going to criticise the article and I am sure there are many aspects of it one could disagree with, you could come up with something better than saying it must be biased because he doesn't stipulate the religion of birth of his mother.

 

[Macquack]

I am not the one who neglected to include all the facts.

Like many on ASF, Harris is just a good wordsmith, does not make him right or his opinion any better than anybody else.

 

[bellenuit]

I am not the one who neglected to include all the facts.

All relevant facts about him are included on his blog. Needing to disclose his mother's defunct religion is, as I said, ludicrous.

Like many on ASF, Harris is just a good wordsmith, does not make him right or his opinion any better than anybody else.

Of course. So why don't you discuss what part of his article you disagree with rather than just say it is biased?

 

[Macquack]

As I said in one of my first posts, Hamas would not be firing rockets at Israel and we would not have had the over the top retaliation that we have seen from Israel, if those in the West were to condemn Hamas for its actions as vociferously as they condemn Israel.

When Hamas lie low, Israel just takes more of their land, locks them up in an occupied territory and depraves them of human dignity.

What do you expect Hamas to do, continue to take it up the ****?

How the **** can the west condemn Hamas without slaughtering all the Palastinians.

Don't worry bellenuit, Israel is doing exactly what you want.

 

[bellenuit]

When Hamas lie low, Israel just takes more of their land, locks them up in an occupied territory and depraves them of human dignity.

What do you expect Hamas to do, continue to take it up the ****?

How the **** can the west condemn Hamas without slaughtering all the Palastinians.

Don't worry bellenuit, Israel is doing exactly what you want.

Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.

 

[Uncle Festivus]

Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.

'return those parts already taken'? Well that would be Israel then?

The state of Israel exists because they stole someone else's land.

Israels aim is to eradicate Palestine - as shown by the video of the systematic demolition of suburb after suburb - it's simply a land grab before the US finally tells them enough is enough. Without financial support from the US Israel would not exist.

http://youtu.be/YVV6zIyymoE

But that's ok because the IDF dropped some leaflets letting you know that your suburb was about to be flattened - Hamas used the entire suburb as a 'human shield'

If your back is to the wall, what have you got to lose?

 

[bellenuit]

Oz: 'Lose-lose situation for Israel'


http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511

 

[luutzu]

What I have witnessed on this link that is happening in France is frightening to say the least.

Can it happen here?...........Yes it can if we continue to allow more Muslims to enter Australia illegally or legally.

The problem is those who are already here are reproducing at an alarming rate and the ratio is 8 to one the number of rebirths by Australians.

It is generally stated that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and it is the radicals who make all the trouble.

Yes they are all peace loving until they get the numbers and that is when the peace lovers become radicals...they are like a sleeping dog.

Wake up Australia and don't let it happen here.

I ask the question....why is there so much hatred between the Jews and the Muslims?




http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inter...as-executes-30-suspected-collaborators-report

That is wrong on so many level.

I don't know why most Arab/Middle Eastern families have more than the 2.1 kids, but wouldn't you assume that it could be because their religion does not allow contraception and other means of birth controls?

I don't know Islam, but to say that Arabs have more kids so they will one day take over Australia is just wrong. Does Catholics having more than 2.1 kids have the same plan too?

We're living in a secular, liberal, democratic society... multiculturalism... so your rationales are unfounded.

I haven't read or heard any studies done in Australia, but in the United States, the Israeli Lobby - with incredible financial strengths, influence its political leaders and media dialogue that favours Israel no matter what Israel does. Often to the detriment of US national interests.

Given those facts, no objective person is saying that the Jewish people are undermining US security or planning to subplan American democracy... because it is impossible for any one group to do that kind of things in a democracy.

You should youtube lectures on the Israeli Lobby by professors Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt... They argued that not a lot of Jewish people identify with Israel or agree with its policies, but the Israeli Lobby, while acting as any lobby in a democratic system, direct its enormous power and influence in favour of a foreign country, and often doing it at harm to the national interests.


If you're concern about our security and national interests, i think you ought to not jump to that kind of bigoted conclusions.

To think that the Arabs are out there hating Jews, and by hating Jews they also hate democracies and "Western values" is absurd.

Of course there are extremist elements in any society and culture, to select those opinions and paint an entire civilisation like that is just morally wrong and factually unfounded.

 

[luutzu]

He is a critic of all religions, but particularly Islam and asserts (as I think would anyone with half a brain) that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilisation and it "is not even remotely a religion of peace". He also criticises Judaism and particularly its ancient texts and the whole concept of the state of Israel. This is from his book "The End of Faith":

I think you're right, anyone with half a brain would think one religion preaches violence while others are all about peace. Wait, Harris also admit that Judaism is violent, but most Jews know better than to follow their Bibles literally... only the Arabs, all Arabs, follow it to the letter.

I don't know much about the teachings in either religion, but I read somewhere that Islam and Judaism and Christianity share the same God, Islam recognise Moses and Jesus Christ are Prophets of that God, just like Muhammad is a Prophet of God... but of course that can't be true, one religion and people are just evil than the other.

 

[luutzu]

Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.

I think that if you step back a bit, look at the facts, go see the arguments and conclusions by respected scholars like Chomsky, Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt, Norman Finkelstein, and especially pay attention to further questions in their Q&A sessions... you would be very upset and maybe heartbroken to see what Israel has done, is doing, and continue to do.. if not done in your name, then certainly done with your sympathy and understanding.

I think you owe it to yourself and to the obviously innocent civilians being killed and maimed in Gaza right now to take some time and look at the facts and see if those facts match up with Israel's claims to self defence and peace.

In 3 years time, the Palestinians living in Gaza/West Bank has been living under occupation for 50 years.
In the last 6 years, a 7 year old Palestinian child have witnessed 3 wars on their homeland. They would have certainly seen at least a member of their family died in those wars, lost friends siblings...

For the last 47 years, Palestinians cannot freely move, their food, their electricity and fuel, their water, materials to build their family a home, opportunities to learn and advance themselves... all these are under the control of a foreign power. And every few years, there's a war that destroy all they have worked to try to carry on living...


I think you owe it to your own conscience, before telling the Palestinians that what has been done to them is wrong but "understandable", you ought to really check out the claims that make it understandable.

Below are Israeli myths:
1. Israel is Jewish and Judaism, criticising Israel is anti Semitic and loyalty to Israel is loyalty to Judaism.
- Israel is a country, established by a segment of the Jewish people - the Zionists.
- Israel is a racist state, with one law for the favoured blood and all else are second class.

2. Israel has always fought wars because its neighbours want to wipe it off the map
- No one will dare fight you if you have 600 nuclear warheads, no matter how much they hate you;
- Israel's former foreign minister and historian have concluded that all Israel's wars has been of self-created traps, follies or invasion... except for maybe the 1948 war of independence, none has been war for survival;

There's more but anyway...

 

[SirRumpole]

- No one will dare fight you if you have 600 nuclear warheads

Can you supply a source for your assertion that Israel possesses 600 nuclear warheads ?

 

[noco]

That is wrong on so many level.

I don't know why most Arab/Middle Eastern families have more than the 2.1 kids, but wouldn't you assume that it could be because their religion does not allow contraception and other means of birth controls?

I don't know Islam, but to say that Arabs have more kids so they will one day take over Australia is just wrong. Does Catholics having more than 2.1 kids have the same plan too?

We're living in a secular, liberal, democratic society... multiculturalism... so your rationales are unfounded.

I haven't read or heard any studies done in Australia, but in the United States, the Israeli Lobby - with incredible financial strengths, influence its political leaders and media dialogue that favours Israel no matter what Israel does. Often to the detriment of US national interests.

Given those facts, no objective person is saying that the Jewish people are undermining US security or planning to subplan American democracy... because it is impossible for any one group to do that kind of things in a democracy.

You should youtube lectures on the Israeli Lobby by professors Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt... They argued that not a lot of Jewish people identify with Israel or agree with its policies, but the Israeli Lobby, while acting as any lobby in a democratic system, direct its enormous power and influence in favour of a foreign country, and often doing it at harm to the national interests.


If you're concern about our security and national interests, i think you ought to not jump to that kind of bigoted conclusions.

To think that the Arabs are out there hating Jews, and by hating Jews they also hate democracies and "Western values" is absurd.

Of course there are extremist elements in any society and culture, to select those opinions and paint an entire civilisation like that is just morally wrong and factually unfounded.

A little food for thought on the true state of Islam......The Arabs had intentions of wiping Israel off the map in 1967, known as the 6 day war when the Arabs received more than they bargained for......During that period, Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the Golan heights and the West Bank......The Gaza strip was given back to the Palestinians much later, the reasons I am not sure.......the Golan Heights and the West bank were held for strategic purposes to stop further invasion by the Arabs.

With regards to the Catholic faith, there was intentions of the Catholics to become the dominate religion in the world during the 40's and 50's and even into the sixties.....Catholic families of 9 and 10 were not uncommon during that period and it was because contraception was banned on all accounts......But it came to pass, having large families became unaffordable and the cheating began resulting in smaller families.


CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD Australians? This is certainly 'food-for-thought' .

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our Australian Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good Australian?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .

Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam . (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .

Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America the great Satan, Australia and the rest of the free world.

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the Australian Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Australians [or good Englishmen or good Americans!]. Call it what you wish, it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country [ and yours] and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

THE AUSSIE DIGGERS WANT THIS TO ROLL OUT ALL OVER AUSTRALIA .

Please don't delete this until you send it on.

 

[Macquack]

The Israel/Palastinian conflict is literally a “dog fight”.

It is the dirty rotten Israelis with their killer “american” pitbulls verses the Palastinians with their ferocious chihuahuas.

It is not a fair fight.

 

[noco]

The Israel/Palastinian conflict is literally a “dog fight”.

It is the dirty rotten Israelis with their killer “american” pitbulls verses the Palastinians with their ferocious chihuahuas.

It is not a fair fight.

ROFL.....Hail Hitler...

 

[chiff]

As one of my European relations sent me "David versus Goliath-the world is watching"

 

[noco]

As one of my European relations sent me "David versus Goliath-the world is watching"

David the Israeli versus the Goliath Arabs.

 

[noco]

Are there any women in the Western World who would like to follow Islam?


More than 1. reason to kick them out of our country.Pity we can't vote on it

******************************************************************************************

Subject: Joys of Muslim Women





These are troubling times.

This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim. This is not heresy, and it will scare you.

Make sure you read the paragraph (in red) towards the end.

cid:1.4291168748@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com




Joys of Muslim Women

by Nonie Darwish




In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child, consummating the marriage by 9. The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.







Even though a woman is abused, she can not obtain a divorce.

To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses.

Often after a woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family must return the dowry. The family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives 'at will' and the man does not have to say why he has beaten her.It does not matter if she dies from the beating she can always be replaced.




The husband is permitted to have 4 wives and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.




The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.




In the Western World (America) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her. It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending American Universities are now marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.




By passing this on, enlightened American women may avoid becoming a slave under Shariah Law.

Ripping the West in Two

Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.




She recently authored the book, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law.




Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old. Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel. He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza .




When he died, he was considered a "shahid," a martyr for jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society.




But Darwish developed a skeptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing. She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.




In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping sharia law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.




For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose sharia on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed. Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the dignity of each individual. Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or killed in this world.




Peace and prosperity for one's children is not as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.




While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Sharia teaches two systems of ethics - one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Sharia encourages the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others.




While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Sharia advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be interpreted as criticism.




It's hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should be executed. Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced through intimidation.




While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt and elsewhere.




In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect the President by themselves! Rest assured they will do so... You can look at how they have taken over several towns in the USA .. Dearborn Mich. is one... and there are others...




I think everyone in the U.S. should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!




It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. the peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion. While America is getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on America ..




This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..

 

[luutzu]

Can you supply a source for your assertion that Israel possesses 600 nuclear warheads ?

The 600 number was referenced in one of John Mearsheimer's lectures titled "the Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy". I think it was in reference to a question about Israel fighting existential wars - fighting for survival - or that Iran was about to build one nuke.

In addition, I saw a documentary a while back where US president JFK have sent US inspectors to Israel and want to force Israel from its nuclear ambition because he does not want a nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

This is also mentioned in this news article I just googled:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal

- Estimate nuclear arsenal of 80 warheads.
- Israel have nuclear and chemical/biological weapons.

Also on wikipedia where estimate between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Regardless of the exact number, I think the point Mearsheimer made, and many strategists and political scientists will agree, is that if nuclear weapons are essentially defensive and not offensive weapons. That once you can build 1 nuke, you can multiple to 2 or 3... and a country having 1 or 2 or 3 nuclear warhead will not be taken over.

The point Mearsheimer also made, and he is not just an Israeli analysts, he's a foreign relation strategists and scholar, he went to West Point and served in the US Navy and Air Force before turning to academia... the point he want to make is that since at least 1967, Israel's military is far superior to any of its neighbours... that the Israel of 1967 and today is not that of 1939 or pre-1947.

But let say that Israel have no nuclear weapon at all... can you seriously believe that any Arab army could take it on and drive it out of Palestine?

 

[SirRumpole]

But let say that Israel have no nuclear weapon at all... can you seriously believe that any Arab army could take it on and drive it out of Palestine?

Not while the Arabs are the disunited rabble that they are now. But Israel is only 8 million people against how many Arabs ?

 

[luutzu]

Are there any women in the Western World who would like to follow Islam?


More than 1. reason to kick them out of our country.Pity we can't vote on it

....

It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. the peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion. While America is getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on America ..




This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..

You seriously think democracies like Australia and US, UK... are liberal and forward thinking because they follow the Judaeo/Christian Bible?

We have advanced technologically, socially more equal and just about all the benefits of modernity because the Church and its teachings are separated from politic and policies.

IF we follow any religion and make policies based on the teachings of any Bible, we will still be living in the dark ages. There will be no condoms, no pills or any form of birth control; no gays or lesbians could get marry [they still couldn't, not legally because the Church's "moral" influence is still too strong]; there will be no medical advances and research etc. etc...


You seem to think that Arabs are all terrorists, that they are poor because they're uncivilised...

Without Arabs scholars, scientists, mathematicians, astronomers... the World and the West probably couldn't even do maths, couldn't even make a proper sail for their ships etc. etc.; the Renaissance would't have happened because without Arab's translations of the Greek's classics, they would have been lost forever.

And that's just from me as a pedestrian reader of history.
Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.

--

In one of their lectures, Stephen Walt replied to a question with the same premise as yours is suggesting... In it, he cite surveys by US State Departments and other bodies and found that with very small exceptions, people in the Arab world like Western culture and Western values; they prefer democracies and liberal government to the dictators that rule over them; Walt even said that the Palestinians, despite what Israel has done to them, prefer the Israeli form of government to theirs..

He points out that it is only when the question regards US and Israeli policies that they all hated, not the people, not the culture or the values.