Israel in the Gaza Strip

[IFocus]

Rederob apologies for the time delay in replying

Thanks for your thoughts IFocus.
There's a few thousand years history involved in the Palestinian issue, and a few people here can't even work out more recent events and their implications.
This thread can explore what Israel's role is in resolving what's disputed, or it can take the opposite side.
Either way, all parties must ultimately agree on a course of action leading to a lasting peace.]

Unfortunately I don't think peace is the aim of the waring parties more like might is right. Its important to understand just who the waring parties are.

Israel is delusional if it thinks that a mere withdrawal from occupied territories is the recipe for success.
And so is Hamas if it thinks it will ever get rid of the Jews in Israel.
However, I don't think this issue is beyond a solution.

Middle East solutions come from when one side is at a disadvantage and must negotiate to survive only might is right.

As for Iran backing Hamas, I say "so what".
Iran's backing meant diddly squat in the recent conflict.

With Hamas being an Iran proxy it can only survive due to financial and training support from Iran. There comes serious obligations attached with that. Hamas is a vehicle for Iran to meddle / gain influence in the middle east and provide some distractions away its own issues.

As for "Iran's intentions", I'm not sure what you mean. Iran will be a small bit player in the region, well behind Saudi Arabia and, in 5-6 years time, probably behind Iraq as well.

Iran is not supporting Hamas so it can make peace with Israel. It is supporting Hamas because they will make war on Israel.

Israel cannot negotiate with Hamas because its an Iran / Syrian instrument. Israel will strike at Iran by attacking Hamas.

Its not a Israel / Palestinian conflict, the Palestinian's are just cannon fodder for the aims of regional players.

Its a mess

 

[darnsmall]

I'm not sure what planet you were on when you posted, but my response was, inter alia, measured against a post including this sense:
Why would we "blame" anyone for being architects of their own deaths when matters largely outside their control were the cause. To even contemplate including bush fire victims at this sensitive and emotional point in time is a touch callous, at best.
And you are accusing me of not being able to apply critical thought.

The interesting thing about war crimes is that they remain so until prosecution lapses, effectively meaning until the perpetrators are dead. Curious things happen in international affairs and the balance of power today may well be different in 10 or 20 years time. In years ahead America may not be able to "control" who is brought before it. So it is not inconceivable that the Chinese in 2030 have GW Bush in front of it for invading Iraq.

lol, yeah and then we'll wait to see if anyone hold China to theirs, and so on and so on...and highly unlikely

If I was rich, powerful, and invading other countries, attacking minorities, then yeah I'd probably blame them for getting in the way of my bullets, rockets, bombs, tanks, etc. I think you kind of missed my point, not to matter. And next time I wait a little bit before poking fun at a disaster, fires, invasions, oil, financial crisis; its all a bit too soon isn't it.

 

[rowie]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/hamas-ready-for-long-truce-20090210-83h4.html

 

[sinner]

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35689

Rabin’s legacy: Protesters' accounts show Israel ‘breaking the bones’ of peaceful demonstrators

Salfit – Ma’an – Israeli forces are carrying out a policy of shooting at the legs of peaceful demonstrators who protest the Israeli separation wall each Friday in towns across the West Bank, demonstrators are reporting.

The accounts of the Palestinian demonstrators who have been wounded by Israeli fire in recent weeks are raising the legacy of the first Palestinian Intifada, when Israeli then-defense minister Yitzak Rabin ordered his soldiers to “break the bones” of young protesters.

A representative of the Popular Committee against the Wall in the village of Ni’lin, Ahed Al-Khawaja, said that Israeli snipers, shooting from nearby hilltops or from stands of trees, are causing debilitating injuries, especially among young men who come to demonstrate.

In the village of Jayyus, which also holds a weekly demonstration against the wall, protesters said Israeli soldiers put silencers on their guns. When five young men were shot at last Friday’s demonstration, none of the marchers present said they heard the sound of gunshots when they were shot.

In Ni’lin, soldier allowed the protesters to reach the wall, then opened fire without warning, deploying tear gas and sound grenades. According to witnesses, soldiers fired on demonstrators as they were fleeing, their backs turned.

On 9 January, a Ma’an photojournalist, Khalil Ryash was among those who was shot in the legs. Another young man was also shot that day while he was sitting in his front yard.

“At the beginning, I did not feel pain,” Ryash said. “A medic tried to help me and I told him I was okay and did not need help. As soon as I finished the phrase, I felt very severe pain in my leg and I was evacuated to an ambulance which was about 100 meters away. The pain became intolerable. We got to Azzun health center where I was x-rayed and medics told me I had shrapnel in my leg, and needed to be taken to a hospital.”

“In hospital they discovered that I was hit by a live gunshot in my left leg, and the gunshot exited from my leg leaving behind shrapnel of different sizes. The doctor told me that some of the larger shrapnel could be removed after the wound heals up, but other could not be removed because removal would tear muscles.”

It was later learned that Ryash was hit with a new brand of ammunition that produces a scatter-shot, a spray of metal pellets that embed themselves in the flesh.

Muhammad Al-Khawaja, 26, from Ni’lin was injured last week. He was hit by a similar gunshot.

Al-Khawaja described his experience: “About half an hour after we arrived at the site of the separation wall, Israeli soldiers showered demonstrators with gunshots and tear gas canisters. As demonstrators rushed away, I was hit by a gunshot to my right leg and was taken to hospital. Doctors discovered that the gunshot penetrated the bones and the muscle leaving behind 20 pieces of shrapnel of which they removed some, but those in the bone they could not remove.”

Twenty-nine-year-old Hamada Al-Khawaja, also from Ni’lin was shot after the demonstration was over.

He said, “At about 4:00 pm, on Friday 6 February, and after confrontations were over, I wandered with my friends trying to see what happened in the village. Israeli soldiers were stationed on a hill at the other side of the wall. They started firing at us gunshots and tear gas canisters. As I turned trying to flee the scene, a gunshot hit me in the leg. I could not move, and was evacuated to hospital. Doctors discovered that the bullet broke my bones and left behind 10 pieces of shrapnel in different sizes.”

If anyone was curious, Ma'an news is considered the number one source for independant news out of Palestine by international press agencies since the Israeli government severely curtails press freedoms in the occupied territories.

 

[sinner]

Must read...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.

"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.

Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.

The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.

 

[gooner]

Maybe slightly off topic as East Jeruasalem is not Gaza, but read today that Israel is building on Palestinian land in East Jerusalem. Does make you wonder if the Israelis really want peace or will not stop until they have all the West Bank as part of Israel

 

[Julia]

I'd bet on the latter.

 

[gooner]

In the news at the moment

We have expelled an Israeli diplomat due to Israel forging Australian passports and putting our citizens at risk

A humanitarian flotilla is trying to deliver aid to Gaza but Israel has promised to repel the boats.

Elvis Costello has cancelled shows.

Not good news for the Israelis, but guess that comes with the territory when you occupy and oppress.

 

[gav]

Maybe slightly off topic as East Jeruasalem is not Gaza, but read today that Israel is building on Palestinian land in East Jerusalem. Does make you wonder if the Israelis really want peace or will not stop until they have all the West Bank as part of Israel

Is this area of East Jerusalem part of the land Israel claimed when they won the 6 Day War?

 

[gooner]

Is this area of East Jerusalem part of the land Israel claimed when they won the 6 Day War?

Gav

Yes it is.

 

[gav]

Gav

Yes it is.

Then isn't that like Australia whinging about the Japanese hunting whales in "Australian waters", when the rest of the world does not recognise these waters as being Australian?

 

[gooner]

Then isn't that like Australia whinging about the Japanese hunting whales in "Australian waters", when the rest of the world does not recognise these waters as being Australian?

No one recognises Israel's annexation of East Jeruasalem, just like no one recognises Australia's annexation of international waters. So yes, there is a similarity there.

 

[DB008]

 

[gav]

Hi Dannyboy,

Can you post a similar map that shows the Aboriginal Loss of Land over the past few hundred years. Cheers.

 

[Happy]

Or loss of Australian influence on land that is taken over by overseas interests?

(Taking into account that some Australians have above all allegiance to other interests)

 

[gooner]

Hi Dannyboy,

Can you post a similar map that shows the Aboriginal Loss of Land over the past few hundred years. Cheers.

Fairly weak attempt at drawing a parallel - do you really think Australia is similar? When was the last time we dropped phospohorus bombs on Redfern?

 

[skcots]

Poor Palestinians. I had some friends work in the gaza strip and apparently on the ground it is far worse then the you think.

 

[disarray]

Fairly weak attempt at drawing a parallel - do you really think Australia is similar? When was the last time we dropped phospohorus bombs on Redfern?

probably the last time ATSIC called for the extermination of white australia and launched endless rocket attacks against the CBD.

oh wait ......

 

[Macquack]

Israeli raid: crimes against humanity ?
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2914730.htm

Israel up to its usual crimes against humanity.

How soft are the Israeli commandos? They cop a few punches from passengers aboard the aid convoy they raided (in international waters) and retaliate by killing at least 10 and wounding many more.

 

[awg]

How soft are the Israeli commandos? They cop a few punches from passengers aboard the aid convoy they raided (in international waters) and retaliate by killing at least 10 and wounding many more.

The footage I saw showed them getting seriously iron-barred.

If you attack commandos in that way, they open fire.

stray bullets would have wounded many

The fault lies higher up, operation was flawed, and screwed up

It must be an infuriating embarrasment for many in Israel

Piracy is what comes to mind, but have heard very specific Maritime regs apply to
blockade running situations

They are certainly managing to tee of so many different countries..bad politics