Israel in the Gaza Strip

disarray said:

so its all the israelis fault and nothing to do with continual palestinian violence? and sharon just had an irrational hatred of the palestinians for no reason whatsoever. right.

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That seems to be the case yes. There are plenty of quotes around of him that indicate this.

There was a Palestinian uprising as a result of the provocation which was crushed, and is used as the justification for the continuation of restrictions.

Like I keep saying, there are faults on BOTH sides. Just giving you the rationale for the crack down.

disarray said:

i wouldn't, because the palestinians aren't some poor defenceless battered bride, they are a heavily armed, aggressively motivated, genocidally inclined, paramilitary force.

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Lol.

Yeah, they have attack helicopters and tanks and all sorts.

disarray said:

they've already stopped. the israelis left gaza completely a few years ago.

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Uh uh.

They still control ALL exits and never allowed the airport to re-open. It is virtually impossible to leave.

And no, settlement expansion has certainly not stopped. Israel is in violation of all peace agreements it has agreed to.

disarray said:

because israel doesn't have a constitution that says ""The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

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There are some equally horrific quotes from zionist doctrine already posted in this thread.

disarray said:

ummm israel didn't crush fatah, it was hamas who crushed them. good to see the palestinians managing their internal affairs with the same delicacy as their external affairs.

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Uh uh.

Israel and the US propped up and infiltrated Fatah, which is why they were crushed as a political force, after having been made completely impotent for many years.

Like I keep saying, there are many faults on both sides.

You cannot justify either. And any demonstration of one sides evilness over the other can be countered with something equally as bad.

But when it comes to upholding basic human rights, and the equality of life... it aint hard to know where to be sympathetic.

"Israel yesterday rejected separate ceasefire initiatives from French President Nicolas Sarkozy and the European Union,"

and

"A foreign doctor at a Gaza hospital, Mads Gilbert, challenged Israel's claim that Hamas fighters were being targeted, saying that by his count 801 children had been injured or killed. Dr Gilbert told the BBC last night: "The numbers are contradictory to everything Israel says. This is the worst man-made disaster for the time I can think (of)."


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24882659-601,00.html

800kids.........
Israel hang your head in shame.
Mr Hitler would be proud of you !

If Israel does not want to stop this attack on another State, then it must be considered that israel is the monster, the problem !

Uncle Barry said:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24882659-601,00.html"A foreign doctor at a Gaza hospital, Mads Gilbert, challenged Israel's claim that Hamas fighters were being targeted, saying that by his count 801 children had been injured or killed. Dr Gilbert told the BBC last night: "The numbers are contradictory to everything Israel says. This is the worst man-made disaster for the time I can think (of)."


800kids.........
Israel hang your head in shame.
Mr Hitler would be proud of you !

!

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UB,
have you even read that article?
It states "bringing the Palestinian death toll since the campaign began to more than 580, of which the UN says a quarter are civilians."

"HAMAS leader Mahmoud Zahar has warned that Jewish children are now legitimate targets, in a bloodcurdling precursor to tanks rolling into the Islamic militant stronghold of Khan Younis yesterday."

So it's OK for hamas to target and kill children?

Hey, I'm taking these quotes from you own link that youv'e provided us.

I know I said I wouldn't respond to your posts any more, but geez this one tops the cake. You're making up your own stories and facts and figures now?

Dear Gordon,
I am not making up the News, the News that all of the non Jewish World would read.

Please control yourself and 'stick' to the facts.

If you think israel can do no wrong and kill or wound OVER 3000 PEOPLE and your heart still burns for everything in that land and they way they conduct their affairs, please, why don't you move there.

And now, this seems to pain you for some reason,
"So it's OK for hamas to target and kill children?"


Why worry ?
To you its acceptable for
800 of THEIR kids to be killed or hurt,
but not one of your kids,
why the double standard ?

Remember someone said it was War, and in War BOTH sides, both groups of people will be killed and or hurt, so I guess yours, the kids of Israel are about to be hurt also.

BUT
How about you pour your energy into sending an email to israel or better still get on the phone and tell them
to START a peace process,
to STOP the attack !

gordon2007 said:

"HAMAS leader Mahmoud Zahar has warned that Jewish children are now legitimate targets, in a bloodcurdling precursor to tanks rolling into the Islamic militant stronghold of Khan Younis yesterday."

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Since when is firing indiscriminately at a civilian population for years on end EVER not an admission that kids are legitimate targets? Why the faux change of position now? This guy is one sick pup.

Only the dead have seen the end of war.

Humans are to blame.

Uncle Barry said:

Dear Gordon,
I am not making up the News, the News that all of the non Jewish World would read.

Please control yourself and 'stick' to the facts.

If you think israel can do no wrong and kill or wound OVER 3000 PEOPLE and your heart still burns for everything in that land and they way they conduct their affairs, please, why don't you move there.

And now, this seems to pain you for some reason,
"So it's OK for hamas to target and kill children?"


Why worry ?
To you its acceptable for
800 of THEIR kids to be killed or hurt,
but not one of your kids,
why the double standard ?

Remember someone said it was War, and in War BOTH sides, both groups of people will be killed and or hurt, so I guess yours, the kids of Israel are about to be hurt also.

BUT
How about you pour your energy into sending an email to israel or better still get on the phone and tell them
to START a peace process,
to STOP the attack !

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I'm beginning to think you have serious mental health and or a severe incapability to comprehend.

End of discussion.

Dear Gordon,
Arr, when all else fails, attack the player in person !


However you still a problem with,

" Why worry ?
To you its acceptable for
800 of THEIR kids to be killed or hurt,
but not one of your kids,
why the double standard ?


800........ have you ever seen 800 kids, human children ?

If you have, then think thats the people who you Mr Gordon support, the people who have killed or wounded 800 children.

Just think about it for a while, allow your heart and soul to feed on the fact that israel has

KILLED
or WOUNDED

800 CHILDREN !

To myself, anyone who even hurts one child is a monster.
So what does that make israel who have killed or wounded 800 ?

please answer Mr Gordon.

If you insist on players a numbers game UB, you will have to factor out the number of children that would not have been killed had Hamas not deliberately shielded themselves from attack with children.

But you ought to be able to see why such arguments are ultimately futile and deliberately provocative. They certainly come nowhere towards proving one side more evil than the other*. It isn't that kind of war.

* other arguments might, but not the dead kids one

to me the move by israel is simply a means to an end.

wars are never fair or just, its naive to think in those ways.

hamas openly attacks israeli civilians. rocket attacks are "reportedly" happening over an extended period of time. these rockets are not aimed at military targets, they are aimed at populated centres, towns and cities. the objectives of those rockets are solely to harm civilians.

the military operation against hamas operatives, not the Palestinians themselves is directly a result of the ongoing hamas operations. who knows how many families in gaza have sons or daughters involved in the operations, and who knows how many are under the age of 18. i assume there will be hamas members who may be younger than 18 myself.

50% of the gaza strip population are under 18, so 50% of the time children are likely to be victims in the majority of occasions where the armaments either miss skip, deflect or are incorrectly aimed at military targets.

imho an urban war using strategic bombing primarily is never going to get you definitive results, face to face urban warfare is more likely to get you your man, but if the hamas are not wearing uniform (unlike the Israeli military) then blending in and hiding amongst the civilians makes it an impossibly hard war to win.

i cant agree the hamas operations to fly rockets into civilian regions is justifiable, its a situation you have to address, Israel from what i have read the last years have been bombing targets and firing armaments in gaza in response but no let up from hamas.

its critical for hamas to capture israeli soldiers, for the sole purpose of bargaining with the israelis and applying pressure upon them. israelis would not do the same with any captured hamas operative, they would not threaten to harm them as a means to apply pressure on hamas, israel would follow the geneva convention rules of warfare on any captured hamas operatives.

its gut wrenching to see the damage being done to these people caught in gaza, and like any conflict its only the attention of the media thats politicising the operation.

right now in the democratic republic of congo a war rages..

this war is "the forgotten war"

the country is one third the size of australia.

56 million people live there

"Its citizens are among the most unfortunate in the world. As Philippe Tanguy - Medecins Sans Frontieres Australia's director of communications - points out, each year his organisation publishes a list of the top 10 most under-reported crises in the world. And each year for the past decade, the Congo has finished in the top three."


"The United Nations estimates that 3.8 million people died in the last conflict alone, the worst death toll due to conflict since World War II. But no one ever talks about it."

you are certainly spending a lot of time and effort arguing about a war that imho has been forced upon hamas by the actions hamas has undertaken and was reacted to, civilians casualties are reported and there is extreme sadness there

but who would shed a tear or even passed a single thought towards to 3.8 million souls lost in the last battle alone hey?

Mr Lucas,
You also allow your mind, heart and soul to think about the fact

800
children
have been
KILLED
or Wounded.

And then tell me you are proud of israel,
tell that is acceptable

or would you like me and many other have thought
to stop and call a truce
would have been better than killing or wounding 800 children.

Both France and Russia have called on israel to stop,
however they will not,
stop this mindless killing.

So what does this suggest to the World about the jewish people that control israel ?

Does this remind you and others of how Mr Hitler conducted Germany many years ago, because it does to many people around the World.

Please Sir, if you cannot answer these questions, with fair and reasonable answers, then do not lower yourself to Mr Gordon standard and launch a personal attack on me, as this only portrays a sad, sick person with a cold heart and mind to all readers.

Damage control for the Israelis...a female spokeswoman has come to the fore.Over the years this happens when their contempt for Palestinian lives is exposed.Intended to soften the situation..
Remember years gone by.
Interviewer...Why did you shoot the child?
Israeli Spokesman...He was carrying a bomb
Interviewer...There is no evidence for that.
Israeli spokesman...He was thinking of carrying a bomb...ha ha ha hee hee hee

The only evidence that the Palestinians use children as human shields comes from the Israelis.
I read somewhere that there were 12 Holocaust films made last year and eight planned for this year so far...

UB, how it works is you make a defensible and logical argument and we respond with a counter argument or support for yours.

But if your argument is neither defensible nor logical, but a mere impassioned plea for others to search their hearts (like you have presumably, whereas of course, we haven't), then you must get off your soapbox and go and choose a more appropriate means of ramming your ideas down our throats. Suggest fundamentalist religion; it's got all the ingredients that you'll just love.

Dear Mr Lucus,
as I wrote before,

"Please Sir, if you cannot answer these questions, with fair and reasonable answers, then do not lower yourself to Mr Gordon standard and launch a personal attack on me, as this only portrays a sad, sick person with a cold heart and mind to all readers."

And sadly you have exposed yourself just like Mr Gordon with an personal attack on myself.

Does the thought of your team in israel killing or wounding 800 children have any effect on you ?
I don't think so, as long as they AREN'T jewish children.

Sick is the best description for the above.

Have you ever thought for one very small moment that all those people who are in some way connected directly to these 800 children, will now not love your israel, in fact they will by now be starting to deeply hate that state that caused the pain and fear, from this point onwards the problems for the jewish people around the World and in israel will only deeper.

No thinking someone, not so clever, as in any modern War you have to win hearts and minds also.

Unless you kill everybody connected, or is that the long term plan, I pray not !

ps, woun't you be yelling now if 800 jewish children had been kiiled or wounded
Yes you are playing the same set of ideas as Mr Gordon.

Myself, I don't want to see or hear about ANY child being hurt.

I realise you are having problems with this, but discrediting the "count the dead kids" argument is not direct or even tacit support for Israel's position.

disarray said:

oh yeah david and goliath, nice analogy. like the entire arab world against israel kind of thing yeah? with the palestinians left holding the bag for the repeated abject failures of their muslim brothers. well done the ummah!

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if by "ummah" you mean the whole islamic world.. then i think you are wrong. the whole islamic world is not trying to destroy israel. its the palestinians and certain arabs that refuse to see the logic in peace and economic proseprity.

in fact some islamic countries have very good relaitons with israel and recognsie it in full capacity. turkey for exapmple shares defence techlonogies with israel and trains israeli troops.

islamic countreies that have very good relaitions with israel are azerbaijan, albania, republic of kosovo, bosnia & herzegovina, kazakhstan, jordan, egypt, eritrea, kyrgistan, uzbekistan, tajikistan, indonesia, bahrain, oman, morocco, tunisia and a few others.

several islamic coutnries could theoretically defeat israel mitlitarity. namely, turkey, pakistan, iran & kazakhstan. both convetionally and nuclear strikes. as they all have the know how to develop the bomb and deliver it. (yes i thnk iran has the capabiltiy) and of courese kazakhstan used to have them and could make them again. so your claim of a collective failure of the islamic world to destroy israel is just plain wrong on so many levels.

slim pickins said:

several islamic coutnries could theoretically defeat israel mitlitarity. namely, turkey, pakistan, iran & kazakhstan. both convetionally and nuclear strikes. as they all have the know how to develop the bomb and deliver it. (yes i thnk iran has the capabiltiy) and of courese kazakhstan used to have them and could make them again. so your claim of a collective failure of the islamic world to destroy israel is just plain wrong on so many levels.

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One or a few of them together could.

Unfortunately you leave out Israel's allies who must be considered as part of their defence....

There is really no point debating with those that support israeli aggression. In spite of all the facts/stats/numbers that point to decades of horrific oppression by the 4th mightiest military in the world, they still find ways to justify such barbaric actions. The only way they would know the truth is if they were to live in Gaza themselves for a few months and be subjected to what the Gazans have been subjected to. Only then perhaps could they understand the mindset of the Gazans and the actions that they take. Only then perhaps may they be able to grasp the concept of armed struggle in the name of self defence against an enemy that is bent on making your life as miserable and short as possible. As Uncle Barry said, how on earth can you justify the mass murder of hundreds of children, how the hell can anyone not be mortified at this? And disarray chooses to justify it by classifying the palestinians as a race as animal like creatures hell bent on total destruction of israel. If only human nature were that simple, only u fail to realise that there is goodness at the root of most human beings. And most human beings hold goodness at the root of their characters, even palestinians. Think for 1 minute that they too feel and are human like us. But when u are truly pushed to a corner and your life severely threatened and your kids futures seem totally bleak, what do u do>>? U really wouldnt know as u have never ever been there or done that. So dont judge, and never justify mass killings. There is no way that anything positive will come out of this barbaric war, that I can say with certainty.

rowie said:

If only human nature were that simple, only u fail to realise that there is goodness at the root of most human beings. And most human beings hold goodness at the root of their characters, even palestinians.

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What if evil is at the root of most human beings?

Why does it have to be goodness?

rowie, however impassioned you feel about the barbarity of killing, supporting Hamas over Israel in this conflict is no way to end it.