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Israel in the Gaza Strip

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hotbmw said:
well if its not fit to run itself it needs to be squashed before its a big pest and unsquashable!
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Bloody hell you are dumb.

Israel CAN'T run itself.

Therefore, according to your logic, Israel should be squashed.
 
your dumb mate if u cant see i wasnt taking your comments too seriously.

mate considering u used the word dumb, your "dumb" if you dont know that these extremists dont stop at israel if they gain more power.
if israel dont get tough now whilst they can it will be worse in the future when the balance of power is evened. and then the western world will be targeted by these EXTREMISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do u want to live in that world??????????????????????????????/
 
chops_a_must said:
Hamas is a democratically elected organisation. You might not like it, Israel might not like it, the world might not like it, I don't like it - but they are democratically elected representatives of their people.
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A point which seems to have been conveniently overlooked by most of the world.
"The West" has been on about spreading democracy in the Middle East.
Then when Hamas is in fact democratically elected, they just won't accept it.
 
Julia said:
A point which seems to have been conveniently overlooked by most of the world.
"The West" has been on about spreading democracy in the Middle East.
Then when Hamas is in fact democratically elected, they just won't accept it.
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Mugabe was "democratically elected" too...
 
good point gav.

once again i point out the extremist nature of hamas, hezbolah, al quaeda etc....

we r better off without them!!!
 
gav said:
Mugabe was "democratically elected" too...
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Sorry, Gav, but that's complete rubbish. Mugabe threw his opponents into prison and threatened voters with death if they didn't vote for him in the most recent elections.

Is this really how you see democracy?
 
Actually the other opponent withdrew, so Mugabe was the only candidate. Technically still "democratically elected".
 
chops_a_must said:
Christ you are funny.

Personally, I would rather live in a world with apostrophes, rather than Israel.
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your entitled to your opinion mate as we live in a free ideal part of the world.

unlike parts of the extremist muslim world where their are virgins waiting for u in heaven if u are a suicide bomber.

sorry mate i could never side with hamas on any issue whatsoever......

u need to understand that once these kinds of groups get more power they will do even more extreme things against the western world. these extremists hate us mate!

P.S. IM TALKING ABOUT EXTREMISTS, NOT ALL MUSLIMS.
 
I wonder if the Middle East and all its tensions actually serves some greater purpose? I mean in some sort of psychic sense. It's never going to stop. Perhaps it serves as a kind of educational tool to the rest of the human organism. Perhaps god is an atheist and it's its way of telling us all to steer well clear of religion.
 

See... this is what cracks me up.

What separates muslim extremism from Jewish extremism, which is known as ZIONISM and is what the Israeli state is fundamentally based on?

I don't agree with what Hamas does, but I sure as hell know what side I am on.

Why do the Palestinians dislike Fatah, the main alternative?

1) Because they are corrupt.

2) Because they are puppets of the international community.

3) Because they willingly gave up land to Israel.

4) They did not defend their people.

5) And lastly, were still crushed by Israel.

So tell me why wouldn't Palestinians vote for a group that promises:

1) Personal protection.

2) Defence of your lands and your crops.

3) To be funded only by muslim groups.

4) To be acting only in the interests of Palestinian people.
 
gav said:
Actually the other opponent withdrew, so Mugabe was the only candidate. Technically still "democratically elected".
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He withdrew after being repeatedly beaten up and imprisoned by Mugabe's thugs, as were others in his party. You haven't addressed the issue of the threats to supporters of the opposition.
Anyway, waste of time discussing this madman. No one in their right mind would consider the Zimbabwe government an example of democracy.
 
Wasn't it Hamas whose first few months in office kept them busy pushing Fatah members off buildings? If Palestinians actually want their democratically-elected politicians to be doing that, then god help them.
 
lucas said:
Wasn't it Hamas whose first few months in office kept them busy pushing Fatah members off buildings? If Palestinians actually want their democratically-elected politicians to be doing that, then god help them.
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Nah. Fatah was told by its backers to do exactly that to Hamas. Which is how Hamas ended up with a whole pile of imported weapons.
 
A couple of quotes to back it up:

"U.S. funding, weapons and training for Fatah

Over the 2006 and 2007, the United States supplied guns, ammunition and training to Palestinian Fatah activists to take on Hamas in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank in a U.S. effort that cost $59 million and covertly persuaded Arab allies to supply more funding. A large number of Fatah activists were trained and "graduated" from two West Bank camps while Jordan and Egypt trained two Fatah battalions, one of which was deployed to Gaza in May.[6][7][8]"

...

"Conflict between Fatah and Hamas had been simmering since Hamas won the legislature elections in January 2006. The U.S. and Israel attempted to undermine the democratically elected Hamas[4] while strengthening President Mahmoud Abbas's position and forcing Hamas from power. The U.S., Egypt, and Israel also armed and trained Fatah for a possible 'War' with Hamas.[5][6][7][8]"
 

If Fatah were the main alternative and were as bad as you descibe, then the Palestinian election was NOT democratic - as there were no real alternatives to Hamas. Not much different to Mugabe being "elected" IMO...
 

from danielpipes.org
 
gav said:
If Fatah were the main alternative and were as bad as you descibe, then the Palestinian election was NOT democratic - as there were no real alternatives to Hamas. Not much different to Mugabe being "elected" IMO...
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Nah, if there wasn't democracy, Fatah would almost certainly have won the election. Not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hamas are angels. But if I was a Palestinian, and had a choice of either supporting a home grown group as opposed to one propped up by Israel for their purposes, it would be a no brainer...
 
No wonder we have wars when so many people are 'Right Fighters'.

What is a 'Right-Fighter'? There are many sites but the following describes it about as good as any.


Whether or not they were democratically elected has nothing to do with the issue in an international context of resolving the conflict... unless you subscribe to the might is right philosophy sorta like that judge that thought he was above a speeding ticket, that a judge is/above the law.

There have been plenty of democratically elected people who have behaved badly and or criminally. Being democratically elected isn't a mandate to become 'the law'... holier than thou.

Unfortunalely, the total casualty count is hardly a reasonable benchmark to gauge any rightiousness or grounds for cease fire when fighters from one side goes un-uniformed and deleberately camaflauges themselves amongst the civilian population. How can one rely on any estimates of civilian v Hamas casualties in these circumstances!

There's no doubt corruption is rife in the region... it always has been... it's part of the culture.

There's no doubt conflict and terrorism is rife in the area... it aways has been.

So in the final analysis I think Kennas earlier post about what people stand for, what they are trying to achieve, is more relevant.

So from a conflict resolution sense while Hamas and it's alias has the anialition of Israel as their objective the present situation will continue.

Would you just sit in your lounge room and take the damage of indiscriminate abuse, rock throwing even gun shots into your property, if your neighdour had the removal of you from not only the neighbourhood, but existance per se, as a stated objective. I don't think so.

So one of two things has to happen for there to be any chance of peace in the region: Hamas and it's alias have to not only recind the anialition of Israel as their objective, but demonstrate it in a substantial way, then I expect Israel and it's alias will recommence peace talks.

Alternatively, If the status quo remains as is, Hamas and Palistine could face oblivion.

The ones I feel for the most is the young children who are being brainswashed into being suicide bombers and being held in the area by their parents as human shields and for public sympathy if they get hurt.

No reasonable parent would put their children in such danger no matter how important the issue was.

It's a measure of emotional maturity that adults resolve their problems among themselves away from and without any involvement or leverage with the children.

I have little sympathy for men or women who sympathise with Hamas and remain in the war zone providing support services for them and become casualties.

So what is the bottom line. From a reasonableness test, Hamas has very emotional objectives that totally prohibit them from even entertaining any demonstratable long term peaceful relations with Israel.

So what's left... WAR... maybe to the last man standing...

and I say 'man' deliberately because Hamas cowardly 'men' (ie emotionally immature and irrisponsible by any reasonable standard) brainwash their children to be suicide bombers to their dirty work for them on the one hand, but scream bloody murder when an Israeli bomb kills one of their children, (what hypocricy in terms of respect for their children) and also insist on hiding and firing rockets and fighting from behind their women and children as human shields.

Having said all that I'm not real keen on Israel, but from a conflict resolution perspective certain things are fundamental pre requesites and Hamas demonstrates no intention of resolution of the conflict... just emotionally immature 'Right Fighting'.
 
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