Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[Value Collector]

Do you care if your religion is true? Or do you just want to people to believe it out of tradition?

 

[SirRumpole]

Where exactly did I say that.

I have said I support freedom of religion, please construct your straw man elsewhere.

What a cop out.

I could construct a religion that says pedophilia is fine and encouraged (similar to Islam in that regard).and that would be OK ?

Any objectionable acts could hide behind a veneer of religion if that is the case.

The fact that you dodge around the issue of the sinister ideology that Muslims believe in means you actually agree with it or you can't justify your position.

Which is it ?

 

[SirRumpole]

Perhaps in order to be regarded as a religion in this country, the governing body must agree to uphold all individual rights and freedoms of our citizens and make public rebuttals of all those parts of their beliefs that go against our accepted freedoms.

eg the law that Muslims can only marry Muslims would have to be publicly retracted, as would any references to arranged marriages, apostacy, genital mutilation and rights of women to divorce.

If the Australian Islamic Council don't agree to this, then they don't have the status of a religion in Australia, don't get government funding, don't get tax exemptions and don't get permission to build mosques.

Naturally, the same would apply to all religions.

 

[luutzu]

China invaded Tibet
Russia invaded Ukraine
North Korea is just plain barking mad and could launch missiles at South Korea any time
Syria is the cause of the most bloody war in decades

Surely you don't dismiss these as "hiccups" do you ?

I never said any state are saintly. Was merely repeating an international survey asking who they think is the world's greatest threat to peace.

China invaded Tibet in the 1950s, right?

Russia didn't invade the Ukraine, the Ukraine was already its puppet. The CIA got involved, overthrow a Moscow-friendly president to install some sort of "democratic" president [ignoring that the president then was democratically elected].

Didn't Syria have elections?

The world would be very peaceful if one country were to invade and push around the other, the weaker one could just give up and die. Life seems not to work that way.

Anyway, who are "we" to decide what's "good" for other people's country? It's their country. Right?

Watch this John Pilger documentary on the price the children of Iraq have to paid during sanctions under Bill Clinton.

WHO estimated half a million Iraqi children die from lack of nutrition and basic medicines from the sanction. More would die under Saddam?

 

[SirRumpole]

Anyway, who are "we" to decide what's "good" for other people's country? It's their country. Right?

Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?

Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?

 

[luutzu]

What about Curtis Cheng, killed by a Muslim outside Parramatta police station, Lindt Cafe , Muslim man attacks policemen with knife. Off duty soldier beheaded by Muslims in Britain ?

Don't you watch the news ?

So everything bad that's being done by an Arab/Muslims, it's caused by being infected by Islam.

But everything that's bad being committed by the White/Christian, that's just one or two or a few crazies?

Got it.

 

[luutzu]

Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?

Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?

Hell yea they'll be better off.

Have you seen Iraq lately? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? etc. etc.

How can you seriously believe that if China invades Tibet, that's China being imperialist. But if the US and its allies "liberate" Iraq, they really meant to free it.

You think the Chinese think they're invading Tibet? Read their press and talk to the comrades and they'll tell you they are merely reclaiming a kingdom that the Great Khan established and where China's Kublai Khan took into his Khanate when he was Emperor of China.

Ask the Nazi why they want to take over Europe? To be imperialistic or to bring peace and civilisation to Europeans who's long been at war with each other.

 

[luutzu]

Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?

Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?

Since when are Western democracies Democracy and its elections not rigged anyway? Because the people get to turn up to vote and the votes are properly counted? Are the people's hopes and dreams always answered soon after each election? Or the poor are always being screwed each and every year in every possible way imaginable.

Scanning through the headlines and it's pretty obvious the Aussie battlers are getting screwed again as their representative give "them" the choice of whether it's their kids education, health or grandma's allowances will have to go and which to be reduced.

 

[SirRumpole]

How can you seriously believe that if China invades Tibet, that's China being imperialist. But if the US and its allies "liberate" Iraq, they really meant to free it.

If it wasn't for the Yanks Britain would be a Nazi territory and Australia would be an Imperial Japanese territory.

I guess coming from a different culture you don't realise what went on in WW2. Maybe a bit of reading might help.

Scanning through the headlines and it's pretty obvious the Aussie battlers are getting screwed again as their representative give "them" the choice of whether it's their kids education, health or grandma's allowances will have to go and which to be reduced.

So vote for someone else. That's one thing we have over the Chinese.

 

[wayneL]

So everything bad that's being done by an Arab/Muslims, it's caused by being infected by Islam.

But everything that's bad being committed by the White/Christian, that's just one or two or a few crazies?

Got it.

The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so, Grasshopper.

 

[luutzu]

If it wasn't for the Yanks Britain would be a Nazi territory and Australia would be an Imperial Japanese territory.

I guess coming from a different culture you don't realise what went on in WW2. Maybe a bit of reading might help.

So vote for someone else. That's one thing we have over the Chinese.

You think the US came into WW2 to save the world?
It, like all imperial opportunist, came in to grab booties and colonies. And hence, what once belong to Britain belong to the US; what is of value to France, Spain, Germany... belongs to the US.

I do read history, lots of it.

Know how Britain, France was overstretched? Having way too many colonies and too many savages to civilised that when a serious challenge came up, one crumbled and the other almost certainly would have if it weren't for a lot of luck and a channel?

Well all those mistakes are taken up and expanded and keeping on expanding.

It'll end well then?

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Yes, a tick in a few boxes will bring in politicians who'll start to care about plebs like me. Just because.

 

[Value Collector]

What a cop out.

I could construct a religion that says pedophilia is fine and encouraged (similar to Islam in that regard).and that would be OK ?

Any objectionable acts could hide behind a veneer of religion if that is the case.

The fact that you dodge around the issue of the sinister ideology that Muslims believe in means you actually agree with it or you can't justify your position.

Which is it ?

Islam is no more sinister than the other abrahmic religions, I am not dodging anything, I am just saying let's give the 99.9999% of Muslims that don't commit violent acts the same respect that we give the other abrahamic religions.

If you believe peaceful Christians have a right to practice their faith, then you have to believe peaceful Muslims have the same right.

Perhaps in order to be regarded as a religion in this country, the governing body must agree to uphold all individual rights and freedoms of our citizens and make public rebuttals of all those parts of their beliefs that go against our accepted freedoms.

eg the law that Muslims can only marry Muslims would have to be publicly retracted, as would any references to arranged marriages, apostacy, genital mutilation and rights of women to divorce.

If the Australian Islamic Council don't agree to this, then they don't have the status of a religion in Australia, don't get government funding, don't get tax exemptions and don't get permission to build mosques.

Naturally, the same would apply to all religions.

Again you are acting like Islam is one religion with one set of beliefs, it's not, it's many different religions.

The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so, Grasshopper.

And some rioters in Cronulla chanting "Aussie Aussie Aussie, oi oi oi" are speaking for all Australians as the bash innocent brown folk.

 

[luutzu]

The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so, Grasshopper.

Does it matter to the victim what their murderers purported intentions and or who their commander are?

Just saw a John Pilger on the Killing of Cambodia...

Guess what war criminal ordered "kill everything that move on everything that fly"? Kissinger, following Nixon's order.

Guess what that does to the peasants? Then what murderous regime it led to? Yea, Pol Pot.

Guess what countries decided to still support Pol Pot as the gov't of Cambodia after VN send in the comrades?

The country that are getting in bed with Mao's China; China wanting the crazy Pot in control so they'll soon colonise Cambodia.

Guess what nobel and enlightened civilisation decided to not send aids to Cambodia because doing so will upset China, be in bed with VN. Know how many Cambodian children dies from that grudge?

We're a great democracy, it ain't going to remain that way if we repeat it often enough.

Might worth us learning the mistakes of trusting politicians that some people deserves to die and ignore all the nasty stuff we're doing because it's all good.

anyway...

 

[SirRumpole]

Islam is no more sinister than the other abrahmic religions,

Oh dear, you just don't look do you ?

Have you heard of the apostacy laws of Islam ? Try and leave the faith and you could be killed. It has happened.

Did you read the article I posted by an ex Muslim ? One of his own brothers threatens his life regularly and you say that is not sinister ?

A Saudi Arabian princess was beheaded for wanting to marry a non Muslim. Not sinister ?

Charlie Hebdo criticised Islam and look what happened. Not sinister ?

Women are stoned to death for adultery in Islam. Not sinister ?

If Muslim women are raped , they get punished.

No religion should be allowed to reduce individual rights like Islam does. It doesn't belong here.

 

[Value Collector]

Oh dear, you just don't look do you ?

Have you heard of the apostacy laws of Islam ? Try and leave the faith and you could be killed. It has happened.

The Bible also instructs you to kill apostates, and the Catholic Church for example has Killed many thousands of people for apostasy over the years.

Now the next words you type will be something like "But the don't do it today", and it's true "Most" christians religions don't practice that today, But guess what, most Muslims don't practice that either.
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I think you are really struggling to understand that Islam is not one thing, there are many different Islami based religions, and they believe different things.

 

[SirRumpole]

The Bible also instructs you to kill apostates, and the Catholic Church for example has Killed many thousands of people for apostasy over the years.

Now the next words you type will be something like "But the don't do it today", and it's true "Most" christians religions don't practice that today, But guess what, most Muslims don't practice that either.
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I think you are really struggling to understand that Islam is not one thing, there are many different Islami based religions, and they believe different things.

In that case you would have no objection to the suggestion I made in a previous post that in order to be regarded as a religion with the associated benefits, religions must be required to observe human rights like freedom to leave the religion, freedom to marry who they want without penalty, equal rights for women etc ?

If there are radical Muslim sects running around enforcing hard line Islam then it's up to the "moderates" to publicly rebut the hard liners and make it clear what they actually believe and that their standards don't reduce the individual rights of their members.

Just because people call themselves a religion doesn't exempt them from the responsibility to observe the civil rights of their members.

 

[Tink]

How many did atheists murder in Communism.

Do you care if your religion is true?

 

[Value Collector]

How many did atheists murder in Communism.

Tink, Communists murdered to grow communism, The communist leaders/parties acted more like religions, often involving leader worship (North Korea) and strict unquestionable doctrines, it had nothing to do with a simple unbelief in gods which is what atheism is.

No one has ever killed simply because the didn't believe in a god, people need a reason to take action.

However people have killed because they were convinced to take action by religion, or religion like doctrines such as communism.

Do you care if your religion is true?

Absolutely,

But I am currently unconvinced any of them are true.

What about you? do you care if your religion is true?

 

[Value Collector]

In that case you would have no objection to the suggestion I made in a previous post that in order to be regarded as a religion with the associated benefits, religions must be required to observe human rights like freedom to leave the religion, freedom to marry who they want without penalty, equal rights for women etc ?

We already require religions to follow Australian law, the right to religious freedom does not extend to taking away other peoples rights.

So when I say I support religious freedom, that means anyone has the right to have or not have a religion, so religious freedom gives you the right to walk away.

So when Tink says she wants her religion in schools, that goes against freedom of religion. Religious freedom doesn't give you any rights over other people, she can make her own schools, but she can't force schools to take on her brand of silliness

 

[SirRumpole]

We already require religions to follow Australian law, the right to religious freedom does not extend to taking away other peoples rights.

So when I say I support religious freedom, that means anyone has the right to have or not have a religion, so religious freedom gives you the right to walk away.

We may think that those rights are inherent , but it's a matter of what religions are actually teaching.

If the leaders of the Catholic, Jewish, Protestant and Muslim churches are not prepared to put their names to a comittment to uphold individual rights then they should not be regarded as religions with all the benefits that that entails.