Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[Tisme]

Firstly not all Jews, Christians or Muslims even read the bad bits, so are unaware of them, or if they are aware they interpret them differently, or even if they believe them 100% they still might lack the guts to carry out an attack.

More like civilised people know theatre when they see it. Muslims don't know window dressing from the price tag.

 

[bellenuit]

Mass shootings in the US ?

Although secular might refer to societies that do not have a state religion, I was using the term in relation to the religiosity of its people. As countries become more prosperous, religiosity drops. The US is an aberration with those who view themselves as having no religion still only a small but growing minority compared to Europe. China is also an exception but for different reasons. Religion is growing in China as it prospers, but it is coming from a base where religion was suppressed and not recognised. The growth will probably plateau once it is no longer openly restricted and then we will likely see a falling off like Europe.

 

[luutzu]

More like civilised people know theatre when they see it. Muslims don't know window dressing from the price tag.

Yes, obviously.

Muslims would pray five times a time, and during each and every of those times, they'd be thinking of whether they ought to beat their many wives first, or abuse their children second, or go write bad things about the way Christians and the West live their life... then go out to take on the US and its militaries.

Good thing those bases are in their backyards too. Save them from having to pretend to be refugees; or buy a ticket.

 

[Ves]

So Ves, are you saying you don't think religious teachings can alter what a person considers right and wrong?

I'm sure we all think consciously that they can. But if the unconscious part of our brain (the part that contains any repressed trauma, mental complexes etc.) is significantly influencing the decision making process then it seems to me that we can be often unaware of the real reasons for our actions. In this case I can consciously 'rationalise' a reason for doing something, when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind. Because of the past trauma the brain disguises this reason as something more pleasurable (ie. a glorious crusade to gain access to heaven), when really they're just scared to death of doing the wrong thing because they were beaten by their father as a kid or something.

 

[bellenuit]

when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind.

Yes, such as brainwashing from early childhood.

As Steve Weinberg, the Nobel laureate in Physics, eloquently put it: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

 

[Tisme]

Yes, obviously.

Muslims would pray five times a time, and during each and every of those times, they'd be thinking of whether they ought to beat their many wives first, or abuse their children second, or go write bad things about the way Christians and the West live their life... then go out to take on the US and its militaries.

Good thing those bases are in their backyards too. Save them from having to pretend to be refugees; or buy a ticket.

Yes if they were good people they would embrace Christianity if they must have a deity overlording them.

 

[luutzu]

Yes, such as brainwashing from early childhood.

As Steve Weinberg, the Nobel laureate in Physics, eloquently put it: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

It doesn't need religion. It first needs impunity. Then it needs dehumanisation of the potential victims.

 

[luutzu]

Yes if they were good people they would embrace Christianity if they must have a deity overlording them.

For sure.

How many other religion could conquer entire continents and either send all them natives to meet their makers or keep them alive to be enslaved but will definitely extract all their resources. Then turn around and managed to convinced themselves that ehhh... we mean well, right? I mean, look at those savages. What can we do but what we've done.

I mean, even Genghis Khan couldn't make stuff like that up and delivery it with a straight face. He'd have to tell the natives he slaughtered that he's their god's punishment for them being naughty.

That's weak Temujin. Grow a pair and tells them that it's their fault and you're here to save them.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm sure we all think consciously that they can. But if the unconscious part of our brain (the part that contains any repressed trauma, mental complexes etc.) is significantly influencing the decision making process then it seems to me that we can be often unaware of the real reasons for our actions. In this case I can consciously 'rationalise' a reason for doing something, when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind. Because of the past trauma the brain disguises this reason as something more pleasurable (ie. a glorious crusade to gain access to heaven), when really they're just scared to death of doing the wrong thing because they were beaten by their father as a kid or something.

Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc

I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.

 

[Tisme]

Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc

I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.

You are still using examples from a less sophisticated time to argue a modern theme. Stalling for that time and hoping Muslims will catchup nearly a millenium and half in the space of a generation isn't going to happen.

It's their inability to mentally grasp advanced western concepts that makes them so rapacious. Akin to being the dumbest kid in the class but a vigorous leader of a slum gang.

When they do manage to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc they are paraded around like a monkees with lego blocks as being something special and given awards (grown up elephant stamps) for surprising us all at their special gifts.

 

[Ves]

Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc

I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.

It's more complicated than my posts of course. It's not just trauma and mental complexes that are repressed in the unconscious it's also primitive 'animalistic' survival instincts (aggression in particular).

Morality (what someone says is good or evil) is a function of language (it's symbolic). A human isn't born with knowledge of language, but instead it is progressively exposed to cultural norms, morality, and inherits the desires, cultural norms and idiosyncrasies of its own people as part of its developmental stages of life.

I guess you could say there is an inherent tension between the learnt or symbolic knowledge and the 'animalistic' tendencies buried deep in the unconscious.

At the end of the day, whether it be caused by some trauma or event, some of us just can't keep those instincts buried. Look at history, there's generally always war scattered all through it. Whether it's religious, conquest, ideological or something else.

 

[SirRumpole]

I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.

Personally I think dropping 2 atomic bombs on civilians was the wrong thing to do, but I can see that the people who made that decision based it on a rational thought process that it would save many more lives if it forced Japan to surrender.

The Allies had already been through a bloody invasion of Europe and wanted to avoid a repeat in Japan.

A terrorist though is irrational, because killing a few people is not going to change anything as far as global politics go. The West will simply use acts of terror to justify their current platitudes that terrorism must be wiped out. The terrorist cannot see that and therefore bases his actions simply on revenge or what the scriptures tell him. So therefore religion denies a rational thought process and appeals to the emotional belief of what is right or wrong.

Not that having emotions is wrong, it's part of the human makeup, but to completely exclude rational thought and let emotions reign is dangerous.

 

[luutzu]

Personally I think dropping 2 atomic bombs on civilians was the wrong thing to do, but I can see that the people who made that decision based it on a rational thought process that it would save many more lives if it forced Japan to surrender.

The Allies had already been through a bloody invasion of Europe and wanted to avoid a repeat in Japan.

A terrorist though is irrational, because killing a few people is not going to change anything as far as global politics go. The West will simply use acts of terror to justify their current platitudes that terrorism must be wiped out. The terrorist cannot see that and therefore bases his actions simply on revenge or what the scriptures tell him. So therefore religion denies a rational thought process and appeals to the emotional belief of what is right or wrong.

Not that having emotions is wrong, it's part of the human makeup, but to completely exclude rational thought and let emotions reign is dangerous.

That version of history is a lie to justify the nukes being dropped.

Japan only surrendered because Stalin and the godless Soviets marched East and was about to enter Japanese territories.

The warmongers in Tokyo thought it's better to deal with the Americans as that would keep their entire country in tact; wait til Uncle Joe comes in and Japan will be divvy up like Germany.

You think warmongers are afraid if a few of their cities got wiped out? Or hundreds of thousands of their people get killed? They've thought about those numbers, like all good gods of war does, and were completely willing to bear those sacrifices others will make.

Here's another story you don't hear about the US on Japan... know how Japan surrendered on some US carrier? Before that date and that hour of official surrender, some nice US airforce general thought to put together some 700 planes and send it over a couple of Japanese cities to unload.

Why? The Japanese have yet to officially sign the surrender, so it's not at all a war crime.

That's rational or psychotic? Takes some brain to know the law and bend it to its limit like that.

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What make you think all terrorist believe in Allah and does it because Allah somehow tells them to?

How did the Arabs fought war against the Romans before Islam? How did the Persians thought to invade the Greek states?

 

[SirRumpole]

What make you think all terrorist believe in Allah and does it because Allah somehow tells them to?

How did the Arabs fought war against the Romans before Islam? How did the Persians thought to invade the Greek states?

Beats me, please enlighten me.

 

[luutzu]

Beats me, please enlighten me.

If people want to steal your stuff, do they need a religion to tell them to steal it?

If they are stealing your stuff, do you need a religion to get angry before you beat them up?
How about if they drop a few tonnes of bombs here, there, everywhere around you? They're the good guys and meant well to have come all that way into your land, so that's cool?

Yea man, what's wrong with Islam.

Why not imagine what it'd be like as an Arab/Muslim living in the Middle East.

Or if you can't imagine that, imagine being a White secular Aussie living where you do and the Chinese decides to liberate Australia from its democracy and whatever.

Will you then wave at the Chinese jets and write them a telegram saying that it's all good; you've just read the People's Daily and want to thank them for coming all the way to free us Aussies from our Capitalism.

 

[SirRumpole]

How about if they drop a few tonnes of bombs here, there, everywhere around you? They're the good guys and meant well to have come all that way into your land, so that's cool?

As has been pointed out before the West is assisting Muslim countries in the area to get rid of ISIS.

Saudi Arabia has formed an alliance of 34 Muslim nations to fight ISIS and tackle 'the Islamic world's problem with terrorism'.

The Saudi-led coalition, which will be based in Riyadh, includes powerful gulf states Egypt and Turkey but excludes Iran.

Alliance members from the Middle East, Africa and Asia will work from the capital 'to coordinate and support military operations to fight terrorism', according to the SPA state news agency.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-anti-terrorist-coalition.html#ixzz4ZGzxGFCf

 

[Value Collector]

It's not just trauma and mental complexes that are repressed in the unconscious it's also primitive 'animalistic' survival instincts (aggression in particular).

.

Yes and tribalism etc, I do not doubt that, But religion makes things worse by creating false enemies, false causes.

It can convince you "the other tribe" is a threat when they aren't, it can create divisions meaning the "other tribe" can never be part of your tribe.

The terrorists that flew planes into the trade centres would have thought they were part of this big mission to end their enemies much like the flight crew of Enola Gay, but they weren't it was all in their head.

A terrorist though is irrational, because killing a few people is not going to change anything as far as global politics go. The West will simply use acts of terror to justify their current platitudes that terrorism must be wiped out. The terrorist cannot see that and therefore bases his actions simply on revenge or what the scriptures tell him. So therefore religion denies a rational thought process and appeals to the emotional belief of what is right or wrong.

Not that having emotions is wrong, it's part of the human makeup, but to completely exclude rational thought and let emotions reign is dangerous.

It only seems irrational to you because you are not looking at it with the same beliefs.

Logic only works when your assumptions and inputs are correct, offcourse if your assumptions are based religious concepts, things that seem irrational to others will be totally rational to you.

if you believe you can fly, its totally rational to jump of a building, and if you believe there is a god, and he wants you to kill the infidels and he will reward you with eternal bliss, its totally rational to do that.

 

[Value Collector]

I think Dawkins explains my point better in this short video.

Basically he believes that in certain cases the terrorists are not intrinsically bad, they are just otherwise decent people carrying out acts based on the logic derived from their religious beliefs.

 

[SirRumpole]

if you believe you can fly, its totally rational to jump of a building, and if you believe there is a god, and he wants you to kill the infidels and he will reward you with eternal bliss, its totally rational to do that.

Do you agree that the above rationalisations are indicative of mental illness ?

 

[luutzu]

As has been pointed out before the West is assisting Muslim countries in the area to get rid of ISIS.

Ohhhh...

That clears it up then.

So it's not WMD and that mushroom cloud we were told?

It's not about getting rid of a dictator either, it's about liberating Iraq so it can be free and democratic. We're nice that way aren't we?

But no, not that either, it's about getting rid of ISIS.

ISIS weren't there when we came in, but we knew it was there so that's why we got in early.

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btw, ISIS is nasty. A group of murdering religious thugs who follow some old book believing it's the words of their God and will kill everyone who does not obey. Wanting to keep their race pure and their religion as God had promised.

Know what other country in the ME that's like that? Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Look who's their best ally and master? Look who gave them billions in military aids and sell them tens of billions in hardware.

But it's all to get rid of religious nutjobs right?


The Chin, the Han, the Romans, the Persians, the Turks, the Mongols, the Moguls... those guys just want to expand and take stuff. Not us though, we're all about giving people freedom and liberty, the world over. That's why some of us like Muslims so much we thought they should stay and die somewhere in their ME.

Anyway....