Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[qldfrog]

You don't think gun control had anything to do with it ?

The guy had a gun license even though he was twice investigated by the FBI for radicalisation.

WTF are they doing over there letting people like him have guns ?

I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?

 

[cynic]

I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?

I am not sure that it was a Jihad attack. From news reports thus far, it sounds more like the crime was motivated by a hatred of homosexuals.

 

[SirRumpole]

I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?

The only people who should be allowed to possess military assault rifles should be the military. And people who are being investigated by the FBI should not own them at all.

Maybe this guy would have stolen a gun or purchased one illegally, who know , but if you make it harder for the lunatics then you reduce the chances of mass slaughter.

How many mass killings have there been in Oz since the gun laws ? How many in the USA ? How many deaths by firearms in each country ?

Give it a rest Mr Frog, gun control makes a difference.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not sure that it was a Jihad attack. From news reports thus far, it sounds more like the crime was motivated by a hatred of homosexuals.

Quite possibly a hatred enflamed by his religious beliefs.

 

[cynic]

Quite possibly a hatred enflamed by his religious beliefs.

Certainly possible. However, according to accounts of his life history, it seems more likely that he went off the rails during his marriage.

 

[qldfrog]

The only people who should be allowed to possess military assault rifles should be the military. And people who are being investigated by the FBI should not own them at all.

Maybe this guy would have stolen a gun or purchased one illegally, who know , but if you make it harder for the lunatics then you reduce the chances of mass slaughter.

How many mass killings have there been in Oz since the gun laws ? How many in the USA ? How many deaths by firearms in each country ?

Give it a rest Mr Frog, gun control makes a difference.

So this was just a lunatic act of course and yes, lunatics, dumped lovers etcv will do less damage with gun control.
But when someone plan a terrorist act, finding the mean is never an issue.
I favour some gun control (seriously, who needs assault gun to shoot deers), but to turn an issue which is roughly a 1400 y old fight of Islam vs the rest of the world into a US owned gun control problem, is quite a nice Houdini act, yet suckers line up to swallow it;
more more more please
indeed!
It must be nice living in these bubbles, quite comfortable indeed,a bit like the pampered turkeys before Thanksgiving.(need to have an American image)

 

[SirRumpole]

So this was just a lunatic act of course and yes, lunatics, dumped lovers etcv will do less damage with gun control.
But when someone plan a terrorist act, finding the mean is never an issue.
I favour some gun control (seriously, who needs assault gun to shoot deers), but to turn an issue which is roughly a 1400 y old fight of Islam vs the rest of the world into a US owned gun control problem, is quite a nice Houdini act, yet suckers line up to swallow it;
more more more please
indeed!
It must be nice living in these bubbles, quite comfortable indeed,a bit like the pampered turkeys before Thanksgiving.(need to have an American image)

Oh please, it's not all about gun control, of course there is the terrorism aspect. I refer you again to the number of deaths by gun per capita in the USA and Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So trying to take one incident and say gun control doesn't work is invalid. Americans die by gun at about 10 times the rate that we do. Any ideas why ?

 

[Tisme]

My bet is that the media will proclaim Omar Mateen a gay in denial, at odds with his Muslim dogma and sick of being tempted by the devil Christian nation. That and he was obviously a foreigner like Obama is, therefore a traitor to truth, justice and inferior in every other way.

Meanwhile we have our own backyard to contend with:


http://www.betootaadvocate.com/unca...eful-day-under-oppressive-gun-control-regime/

 

[qldfrog]

Oh please, it's not all about gun control, of course there is the terrorism aspect. I refer you again to the number of deaths by gun per capita in the USA and Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So trying to take one incident and say gun control doesn't work is invalid. Americans die by gun at about 10 times the rate that we do. Any ideas why ?

Of course gun control is needed, what my stance is:
in that specific case as in any case where such fanatics are involved (aka the couple in california a few months ago) the fact they have an easily purchased gun is irrelevant;
in a country without gun, they would steal a fuel tanker and crash it agains the disco; remember 9/11: they did not need bazookas, artillery or RPGs
And to see the sheeps following the comfortable view "blame it on these stupid Americans with their idiotic gun laws' is maddening, the media playing there an act of manipulation.
But fronting the real issue is so much harder and goes against so much ingrained convictions....
Anyway, just a mad man i am sure, we should not generalised, we will see the muslim and the priests/mayor, even maybe president, arm in arm singing the "we are one" song.
SirRumpole, Europe has been sold this masquerade to death, actual death of a civilisation.
Maybe just maybe people should open their eyes, and start reading the Koran, understanding that as opposed to the bible it is a literal code of life to be followed to the letter as claimed by the obscurantists who have been in control in the mosks(sp?) for the last 4 decades or so, this thanks to oil money and our western governments.
The truth is ugly and terrifying, it is not a reason to hide it.

 

[SirRumpole]

Of course gun control is needed, what my stance is:
in that specific case as in any case where such fanatics are involved (aka the couple in california a few months ago) the fact they have an easily purchased gun is irrelevant;
in a country without gun, they would steal a fuel tanker and crash it agains the disco; remember 9/11: they did not need bazookas, artillery or RPGs
And to see the sheeps following the comfortable view "blame it on these stupid Americans with their idiotic gun laws' is maddening, the media playing there an act of manipulation.
But fronting the real issue is so much harder and goes against so much ingrained convictions....
Anyway, just a mad man i am sure, we should not generalised, we will see the muslim and the priests/mayor, even maybe president, arm in arm singing the "we are one" song.
SirRumpole, Europe has been sold this masquerade to death, actual death of a civilisation.
Maybe just maybe people should open their eyes, and start reading the Koran, understanding that as opposed to the bible it is a literal code of life to be followed to the letter as claimed by the obscurantists who have been in control in the mosks(sp?) for the last 4 decades or so, this thanks to oil money and our western governments.
The truth is ugly and terrifying, it is not a reason to hide it.

I agree that Islam is a potential (maybe even current) danger to our society and that we should not allow it to grow here, but in the absence of terrorism we should also not ignore the potential, so often displayed in the US, for gun violence and the effect that gun control has on reducing this in countries other than the US.

There are other threads for this, so maybe I'm off topic. As to the title of the thread, if Islam motivates people to do evil acts then it is in itself evil.

 

[qldfrog]

I agree that Islam is a potential (maybe even current) danger to our society and that we should not allow it to grow here, but in the absence of terrorism we should also not ignore the potential, so often displayed in the US, for gun violence and the effect that gun control has on reducing this in countries other than the US.

There are other threads for this, so maybe I'm off topic. As to the title of the thread, if Islam motivates people to do evil acts then it is in itself evil.

Fully agree on both points.
But the need of a gun licence for a BB/airgun gun or to shoot a ceremonial canon in landing reenactment as is the case in Australia (with the hefty cost associated, but that is probably the usual grab for cash) is clearly over the top.

 

[qldfrog]

The dad of the killer in his "apologies":
"Seddique Mateen said he was saddened by his son's actions. But he added: "In this month of Ramadan, the gay and lesbian issue is something that God will punish," though "the servants of God shouldn't have anything to do with it." from Brisbane Time.
I can not verify the quote but seems quite in line with a believer's stance

 

[qldfrog]

And 2 cops executed in France: husband and wife under the name of this religion
http://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/live/2016/06/14/en-direct-le-meurtrier-d-un-policier-et-de-sa-compagne-dans-les-yvelines-avait-deja-ete-condamne-pour-terrorisme_4949880_1653578.html
the killer spared the 3y old child.

 

[bellenuit]

As an Arab, the Middle East’s reaction to Orlando left me speechless…

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...orlando-depressing/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

By Mohammed Rady

Recently, a devastating terrorist attack took place in Orlando, where 49 innocent people were murdered. Surely, the majority of people in the Arab world condemn this atrocious act of violence? The most fatal shooting in recent American history cannot possibly be celebrated by such a large number of peace-loving people who, after all, mostly condemn the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam by groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, right? Right?

Wrong.

As a bilingual Arabic and English speaker from the Middle East, I took the liberty of browsing through Arabic news pages on Facebook earlier today; namely Al Jazeera, Al-Arabiya, BBC Arabic and a number of Egyptian news outlets to gauge how the Arab world was responding to the Orlando shooting. The results were disappointing, alarming, and depressing to say the least. Each page’s comment section was inundated with posts showing sympathy towards the attacker, praising him for his actions and wishing death upon members of the international LGBT community. Comments ranged from jokes about the incident and how “the gays had it coming,” to long du’as (religious supplications), wishing death upon gays and lesbians, as well as asking God to grant the killer “the highest place in paradise.” I considered collecting screenshots of these comments to raise awareness about the amount of hatred towards the gay community in the Middle East, but it soon dawned on me that such a task would be impossible.

There were simply too many hateful comments, with thousands celebrating the attack, from Tunisia to Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. It was only through deep digging that a single person who expressed so much as a shred of sympathy to the victims and their families, or even condemned the blatant massacre that took place could be found. If you don’t speak Arabic, visit Al Jazeera’s Facebook page and scroll down until you see a post about the Orlando attack and note what the top three “reactions” (newly added Facebook feature) are.

Shocked? So am I. It is truly saddening and disturbing to see that such a large number of social media users in the Arab world who voice their opinions on the internet openly and unapologetically condone the killing of innocents because of their sexual orientation. Conversely, you may argue that as a majority of Al Jazeera viewers and readers are Islamist sympathizers, it is no surprise that they would be homophobic, and you would be right. But bear in mind that this also applies to outlets such as the BBC and Al Arabiya, whose followers you may assume are anti-Islamist because of their condemnation of ISIS. Egyptian news outlets generally have a large pro-Sisi following, and one might be led to think that their anti-brotherhood and anti-Islamism stance means that they condemn acts of terror against members of the LGBT community. Clearly, this is not the case.

The implications of this are far worse and much more far-reaching than one might initially consider. It has now become commonplace in the Arab world to wish death upon minorities and celebrate their murders. Gays, Christians, Jews, atheists, apostates, heterodox Muslims, liberal Muslims, and secularists are seen as subhuman. Celebrating their deaths is now a norm. At worst, attacks such as the Orlando shooting are met with praise, and at best silence.

Members of the left who claim such terrorism has nothing to do with Islam need to become aware of the issue at hand that is Islamism, and understand the ramifications of evading discussions on it. The Arab world’s moral collapse is the result of decades of fundamentalist Wahhabi indoctrination across the Muslim world which has culminated in the recent rise of Islamic terrorism. Reform must come from within Muslim communities – I can’t stress this enough. An open and frank discussion on the current understanding and interpretation of Islam is much needed. Yes, it’s great to see Muslims in the west condemning the attack and voicing solidarity with the victims and their families, but there still remains a long way to go. The Muslim world, particularly the Middle East and North Africa, has become rife with followers of either Arab nationalist anti-west ideologies, or Islamism and Wahhabism, both of which are cesspools for hate.

When the standard response from a lot of liberals is “Christians can be homophobic too” and “this has nothing to do with Islam” right after a terrorist attack where 49 people were killed because of religious fundamentalism, then a frank discussion is desperately needed. No favors are done by denying the presence of homophobia in Muslim communities and repeating far right Islamist rhetoric and propaganda. This only worsens an already bad situation, and the profundity of the consequences this attitude engenders towards Islamic fundamentalism must be recognized. Ignoring Islamic fundamentalism only makes the far right stronger, and its rise will be immediately followed by the persecution of the minorities whose rights the left purports to protect. This makes it harder not only for the LGBT community in the Middle East, but also other minorities and liberal and secular Muslims who fight for change on a daily basis in the Arab world.

 

[qldfrog]

Thanks Bellenuit, music to my hear but it won't be long before the usual suspects blame this attack on the bombing in Lybia/Syria, Irak you name it;or just on gun control absence
It is a deep and knowledgeable analysis:
did you know that a century ago, 25% of ME population were not muslim; it took less than a 100 y to wipe them out.
I am afraid Islam now is back to its worst form ever, a results of ignorance, overpopulation, political and geopolitical manoeuvres, and of the price of oil with the most backward governments in the world in position of strength.
Just my opinion...

 

[DB008]

Thanks Bellenuit, music to my hear but it won't be long before the usual suspects blame this attack on the bombing in Lybia/Syria, Irak you name it;or just on gun control absence
It is a deep and knowledgeable analysis:
did you know that a century ago, 25% of ME population were not muslim; it took less than a 100 y to wipe them out.
I am afraid Islam now is back to its worst form ever, a results of ignorance, overpopulation, political and geopolitical manoeuvres, and of the price of oil with the most backward governments in the world in position of strength.
Just my opinion...

This says something...

Most popular Facebook reaction emoticon to the Orlando shooting on Al Jazeera's page is 'Haha'

​

 

[dutchie]

Mateen

"The real Muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the West"

 

[Tisme]

Mateen

"The real Muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the West"

But they are happy to enjoy fruits of the west's labour.

 

[Tisme]

Pauline's Election Plank:

http://www.onenation.com.au/current_affairs/islam-policy-released

 

[CanOz]

Pauline's Election Plank:

http://www.onenation.com.au/current_affairs/islam-policy-released

The female version of Donald Trump....

Question: What is the Muslim population doing to correct bad press? I never hear much about their religious leaders speaking out to counter the negativity towards the religion....or maybe it just doesn't sell news?