Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

[luutzu]

Maybe Obama and all others like him are just trying to avoid being added to the Islamic terrorist hit lists. Speak out and speak the truth and that's where you end up, like ex-muslim (i.e. apostate) Ayaan Hirsi Ali who says that terrorism has everything to do with Islam.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4160195.htm

She's what people call "useful idiots".

And if you've watch the interview and want me to explain, your're not interested to know what's wrong with what she said.

 

[Bintang]

Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech

Therefore, you are concluding that a true muslim can not be a moderate, therefore all muslims are radicals.

As I said Mac; "It is a common feature of posters whose arguments are going up a blind alley to ascribe this sort of twisted inference to the statements of those who do not agree with them".

How do you call it reasoning when you said Muslims and Islam is this and that, all of them... and somehow not all, not even most, of them do what you say they'll do. And yet you still believe it.

The essence of what you're saying is "All Muslims are bad radicals; anyone who has been brought up a Muslim and is not bad and radical, can no longer be called a Muslim. Therefore, all Muslims are bad radicals. q.e.d."

Yes, a monumental difference that so many fail to see or don't want to see.

After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.

I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:



The exact definitions I will leave for wider discussion if any one is interested but I will begin with my definition of one of the categories, i.e. the Quasi Muslim

A Quasi Muslim is a muslim, who though he dresses in white robes and behaves with utmost piety while in his home environment, becomes a booze swilling lecher whenever he gets the chance to slip away incognito to places of Western-style decadence, far away from the scrutiny of family and pious cohorts.

This definition can have a fairly universal application. With some slight wording changes it can be used to define, for example, a Quasi Christian Evangelist.

 

[pixel]

Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech

After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.

I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:

View attachment 61199

The exact definitions I will leave for wider discussion if any one is interested but I will begin with my definition of one of the categories, i.e. the Quasi Muslim

A Quasi Muslim is a muslim, who though he dresses in white robes and behaves with utmost piety while in his home environment, becomes a booze swilling lecher whenever he gets the chance to slip away incognito to places of Western-style decadence, far away from the scrutiny of family and pious cohorts.

This definition can have a fairly universal application. With some slight wording changes it can be used to define, for example, a Quasi Christian Evangelist.

I think you're on the right track, Bintang; and I commend you for taking action.

As your categories refer to different groups of Muslims and their interactions with each other and outsiders - as opposed to this topic, Western freedom of speech - would you object to my moving it to the "Evil Islam" thread?
PS: Sorry, my typo. in the thread title, it says "Evil"; of course, "Crazy" would fit too.

 

[Bintang]

Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech

I think you're on the right track, Bintang; and I commend you for taking action.

As your categories refer to different groups of Muslims and their interactions with each other and outsiders - as opposed to this topic, Western freedom of speech - would you object to my moving it to the "Crazy Islam" thread?

I have no objection to that suggestion.
I didn't know there was a "Crazy Islam" thread but it sounds quite appropriate.

 

[pixel]

Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech

After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.

I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:

View attachment 61199

The exact definitions I will leave for wider discussion if any one is interested but I will begin with my definition of one of the categories, i.e. the Quasi Muslim

A Quasi Muslim is a muslim, who though he dresses in white robes and behaves with utmost piety while in his home environment, becomes a booze swilling lecher whenever he gets the chance to slip away incognito to places of Western-style decadence, far away from the scrutiny of family and pious cohorts.

This definition can have a fairly universal application. With some slight wording changes it can be used to define, for example, a Quasi Christian Evangelist.

Where do Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims come in? At face value, their split looks similar to the Catholic / Protestant one in the Christian world. Although I'm not an expert, I also think there are "sects" of various flavours in both.

 

[basilio]

Well we are starting to reach a point where we are not lumping all Muslims as potential terrorists...

Thank God(Allah..) for small mercies.


I see the issue in a number of different guises

1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil. I think that takes us into Final Solution/ Nazi Germany territory which I alluded to in earlier exchange

2) There are very serious problems with some extremist philosophies around the world. We are currently focused on some fundamentalist Muslim groups but the behaviour of Ultra orthodox Jews in the West Bank (as an example) and Koran burning evangalists in the US shows there are plenty of other concerns

3) There are serious questions about how the US and "The West" have behaved towards many Muslim countries and the backlash that has created. In my view the core of that problem has been the relentless expansionism of Israel over the past 50 years and the continued support by The West for these behaviours.

 

[SirRumpole]

1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil. I think that takes us into Final Solution/ Nazi Germany territory which I alluded to in earlier exchange

Fair enough , but we also not be blind to the passages in the Koran that explicitly allows/permits/condones/instructs violence, and pretend that they are not there.

As long as they remain there will be people that will take them literally, which is why we not only have terrorism, but acts of violence against family members (honour killings) who refuse to enter into arranged marriages etc.

So let us see world Islamic leaders renounce and excise the violent parts of their religion before we trust that they have actually come out of the Middle Ages into the modern world.

 

[pixel]

Fair enough , but we also not be blind to the passages in the Koran that explicitly allows/permits/condones/instructs violence, and pretend that they are not there.

I reckon Ms Hirsi Ali summed it up quite fittingly in her interview with Jane Hutcheon:
The Qur'an is not only about religion, and Mohammed was not only the founder of a religion.
The prophet wore also the hats of a war lord, conqueror, slave trader, fitness instructor, and many more. For the unwashed masses of his time, he had to cloak instructions for personal hygiene into religious mumbo-jumbo, so they didn't spread germs by greeting guests with the hand that just wiped their bum. Makes sense in a waterless desert country. And the ban on foods that are quickly "going off" without preservatives - like seafood and pork - had the same useful purpose at the time. It's no coincidence that Jews and Arabs share the same rules.

As regards the treatment of women, look no further than 1st Corinthians, 14, v33-35. "Women, shut up and listen to your menfolk." Mohammed's advice "Hide them, so your neighbour won't be tempted" is no different from the rules laid down by other patriarchies of ancient times. It was far easier to tell a man "Lock her up like all your other property" than to tell him "Keep it in your pants if she isn't your mate." That's got nothing to do with religion, all to do with primitive machismo. Less than 200 years ago, that attitude was still enshrined in the code of law in many "Western" countries, including Great Britain and, by association, Australia.

On the subject of Islam, we must therefore differentiate between the passages on slave trade, conquest, tribalism, and ethics. Which is, IMHO, exactly what enlightened factions of religious groups, be they Jews, Muslims, or Christians of various shades, are beginning to do. They ought to be encouraged, not vilified.

 

[bellenuit]

1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil.

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil. That somehow because it is a religion that it couldn't be inherently evil? Religion is a man made meme, just like Nazism, which I would also called inherently evil. You fear that calling Islam inherently evil will result in a Nazi style pogram of innocent people, but you are IMO confusing the victims with the cause. You seem to be equating Islam and its followers with the Jewish people and Nazism and its proponents with critics of Islam. I think it would be far more correct to equate Islam with Nazism and equate Muslims and non-Muslims terrorised or brainwashed by Islam with the Jewish people.

 

[dutchie]

I'm telling you, football (soccer) is a tough sport (to watch anyway!)


ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Islamist-controlled-Mosul.html#ixzz3PKRPv0KZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Psst - Nothing to do with Islam

 

[bellenuit]

I'm telling you, football (soccer) is a tough sport (to watch anyway!)


ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Islamist-controlled-Mosul.html#ixzz3PKRPv0KZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Psst - Nothing to do with Islam

This is just a few days after they executed some people in Iraq for breeding pigeons.

ISIS Executes Pigeon and Bird Breeders in Diyala, Iraq


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-executes-pigeon-bird-breeders-diyala-iraq-n287421

 

[Bintang]

Where do Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims come in? At face value, their split looks similar to the Catholic / Protestant one in the Christian world. Although I'm not an expert, I also think there are "sects" of various flavours in both.

Sunnis and Shi’ites are just subsets of the #3 & #4 categories. Either Sunnis or Shi’ites can become Quasi Muslims. From my observation the transition from Muslim to Quasi Muslim is related to ‘personal wealth’ You need to have money to escape from the middle east and travel to the world’s fleshpot destinations.

As to why there are Sunnis and Shi’ites that’s an interesting and separate story.

Well we are starting to reach a point where we are not lumping all Muslims as potential terrorists...

Only from the Western perspective. From the Islamic perspective (which actually is the one that matters) there are only muslims and apostates (excluding the kafirs like you and me)

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil.

The most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world today is that being practiced by ISIS. So if you don’t want to take the time to read up on what kind of a human being Mohammad really was and how he actually lived his life, just read all the media reports about ISIS and it will give you a very clear picture.

ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul

This is just a few days after they executed some people in Iraq for breeding pigeons.
ISIS Executes Pigeon and Bird Breeders in Diyala, Iraq

Isis throws 'gay' men off tower, stones woman accused of adultery and crucifies 17 young men in 'retaliatory' wave of executions

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-throws-gay-men-off-tower-stones-woman-accused-of-adultery-and-crucifies-17-young-men-in-retaliatory-wave-of-executions-9986410.html

 

[basilio]

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil. That somehow because it is a religion that it couldn't be inherently evil? Religion is a man made meme, just like Nazism, which I would also called inherently evil. You fear that calling Islam inherently evil will result in a Nazi style pogram of innocent people, but you are IMO confusing the victims with the cause. You seem to be equating Islam and its followers with the Jewish people and Nazism and its proponents with critics of Islam. I think it would be far more correct to equate Islam with Nazism and equate Muslims and non-Muslims terrorised or brainwashed by Islam with the Jewish people.

I suggest you have misunderstood my statements. As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.

For what is was worth I offered a source which specifically addressed the issue of the 5 most misquoted Islamic verses. When you read it you can see how taking one statement out of a whole paragraph can instantly create a completely unrealistic picture.

This is not an accident of course. On the net anyone can say anything ... and get away with it. In fact the more outrageous the better. The bigger the lie the easier it is to get away with.

The process of selective quotation and outright lies has and can be used by anyone who wants to trash a religion or political group. Judaism has been historically trashed with "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (pure creative lies) and the blood libel was used to drive pograms in the Middle Ages.

On a similar note anyone can pick lines and passages from the Bible that portray Jews and Christians as mass killers, slave drivers, women haters whatever. There is a ton of historical date on the role of the Christan Church in killing heretics, Jews, Muslims, witches (women...) . It's all there. So on these grounds it wouldn't be hard to make the case that "These religions are inherently evil"

My argument is that damning a religion as "inherently evil" is one of the strongest possible condemnations one can make of the religion, it's followers and anyone who even supports the right of those followers to their beliefs.

The Nazi reference follows this principle. Hitler decided that Judaism was intrinsically evil. That meant cleansing the German Reich of all Jewish taints. It started with laws against employment, marriage, owning of businesses. It extended to forced public identification, creation of ghettos and finally the extermination camps.

In my view after one brands a group/religion as "inherently/intrinsically evil" you are well on the way to a final solution situation.

So the question would have to be

"Why on earth would we attempt to brand 1.2 billion people as part of an inherantly evil religion and not anticipate a response?
And how would at least some of these people respond to such a campaign?"

It is IMO factually wrong and a terrifyingly dangerous way to behave as a community. Lets address extreme and violent behaviour. Lets look at overall reasons for hatred . But deciding athat the religion is inherently evil....

 

[Bintang]

As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.

So the behavior of ISIS is merely simplistic meme. Is that what you are trying to say? Well, that should be of great comfort to all gays. ISIS throws 'gay' men off tower

The most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world today is that being practiced by ISIS. So if you don’t want to take the time to read up on what kind of a human being Mohammad really was and how he actually lived his life, just read all the media reports about ISIS and it will give you a very clear picture.

For what is was worth I offered a source which specifically addressed the issue of the 5 most misquoted Islamic verses. When you read it you can see how taking one statement out of a whole paragraph can instantly create a completely unrealistic picture.

Your offering is itself very selective and actually displays your total ignorance of Islamic doctrine and the life of Mohammad.

My argument is that damning a religion as "inherently evil" is one of the strongest possible condemnations one can make of the religion, it's followers and anyone who even supports the right of those followers to their beliefs.

Couldn’t agree more with you on this one basilio. That is precisely why those who have real knowledge and experience in these matters are making these condemnations - unlike the apologists who pontificate based on nothing but superficiality and pure ignorance.

In my view after one brands a group/religion as "inherently/intrinsically evil" you are well on the way to a final solution situation.

No. Its only the starting point (a wake-up call) of trying to jolt the Western world out of its apathetic and politically correct slumber.

 

[Calliope]

I suggest you have misunderstood my statements. As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.

You obviously have stronger emotive ties to Islam than you do to opponents of Islam. I get the feeling that you are laying the ground for a conversion, and that's why you have been cherry-picking the Quran looking for the "good" bits. That's okay, as long as you remember that it's a one-way ticket and that, as Bintang said, the purest form of Islam is that practiced by ISIS. A well brought-up lady like yourself might find them a bit crude.

 

[SirRumpole]

You obviously have stronger emotive ties to Islam than you do to opponents of Islam.

The master of denunciation by inference strikes again.

I suppose you will call him a terrorism supporter next simply because he, like myself, does not go for the tarring of everyone with the same brush tactics that is the only argument that simple minds who can only see the world in black and white can mount.

 

[basilio]

Bintang

ISIS is a devastatingly dangerous fanatical group. The rest of the Muslim world is just as concerned as "The west". When the US and Iran partner to tackle ISIS one gets an idea of how dangerous they are to all people.

A meme is a simple,powerful argument. The fact that ISIS treats non Muslims so appallingly is an indictment on them and not another 1.2 billion Muslims. And who is Allahs name says that ISIS is the most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world? They certainly might. Anyone who wants to tar the whole Muslim community with the with the ISIS touch would also make the claim. A billion other people would vehemently disagree.

As for my referance regarding the word of Mohammad and the Quran. I'm bewildered at your ignorance. The person I cited is a leading Islamic scholar. The analysis of the relevant passages is as reasonable as any similar analysis of Torah or Christan gospels. The fact is that cherry picking lines from a source without reading what is said before /and or after and the historical context is just intellectually disingenuous (at best) or (at worst ) deliberately deceitful.

I suppose the main problem with the analysis is that it makes sense of the whole Koran in a way that attackers don't want to see.

For anyone who has an open mind check out the arguments on the website I cited.

For those who somehow believe that ISIS represents the views of the rest of the Muslim world, read the open letter to Baghadi which explicitly damms the movement and it's horrific actions. This letter is part of a world wide Islamic campaign to stop this movement.

http://spiritualperception.org/
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

________________________________________________________________________

On a broader question. How do people get "brainwashed" into violent cults ? An excellent story from a young man who was himself "indoctrinated" into a Neo Nazi cult . Well worth a read

I was radicalised by a neo-Nazi group. It could just have easily been Isis
James Fry

Radical groups recruit young people who are socially isolated, confused and angry. The way to fight their recruitment is with better social services, not better military spending

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...azi-group-it-could-just-have-easily-been-isis

 

[Bintang]

I suppose you will call him a terrorism supporter next simply because he, like myself, does not go for the tarring of everyone with the same brush tactics that is the only argument that simple minds who can only see the world in black and white can mount.

Some simple minds only see black and white

Some other simple minds only see muslims and non-muslims

The heinously clever minds amongst us see muslims, apostates and kafirs

 

[basilio]

For anyone interested in how the rest of the Muslim world view ISIS and the way in which they have reacted to the outrages the open letter is a good read.

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf

 

[basilio]

That URL for the open letter is not that user friendly.

Use this for an easier read.

(Warning. The description of ISIS atrocities is not for the faint hearted. )

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/pdf/Booklet-English.pdf