Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

Value Collector said:

Firstly, you should tar all muslims with the same brush.

I don't want to get painted as a racist just because there are plenty of examples of white Aussies who are racist, So why should we tar a whole muslim group when we wouldn't want to be stereotyped our selves.

but also, wasn't it not to long ago that our own culture excluded women from a lot of things?

We turned out alright.

But, if this is a private school, in my opinion they can do what they like, but should get zero funding.

Click to expand...

It's not the point.

Any society will be negatively impacted if a critical mass of an incongruent culture is reached via uncontrolled immigration. The resident and new cultural invasion being irrelevant. Too many whitefellas in another place will have the dame effect on them.

PC left is welcome to use the irony as it still supports my point.

Tisme said:

My family tree going back to the late 1600's so far is not one of abuses on women and children?

Click to expand...

How the hell would you know that? it's impossible to track all your family history back that far, thats like 12 generations, you would have all sorts of abuses and terrible people in a family tree with 12 generations in it.

In fact the women in my lineage have been well respected, been working mothers with good educations.

Click to expand...

You know after 12 generation you have 4295 Grand Mothers in your family tree, Are you sure they have all been well respected, with good educations? I doubt it.

And anyway, its not like many wives back then talked about their husbands beating them.

the men have probably been the ones well trained in fraternal obedience

Click to expand...

You also had 4295 Grand fathers in a 12 generation family tree, are you sure these statements apply to all of them.

wayneL said:

It's not the point.

Any society will be negatively impacted if a critical mass of an incongruent culture is reached via uncontrolled immigration. .

Click to expand...

The stereotypes that are being used to describe muslims here e.g. fanatical extremists that beat their wives. don't apply to all immigrants, they would be a subset of the total muslim population, and the total muslim population is like 2% of Australian population.

So where is this "Critical mass"

noco said:

Firstly, the majority of women never worked once they became married and had kids to raise......

Click to expand...

Was that because society in your day didn't see women as equals?

Or was it random chance that most doctors were male, where as nurse were women?

Value Collector said:

Was that because society in your day didn't see women as equals?

Click to expand...

Talking to people of noco's generation I think it was more a patriarchal view that children would be better looked after if one of the parents was home to do that rather than in the workforce, and I think that there is an argument to support that, but home parenting is something to be encouraged but not enforced.

I can see the women's point of view though. I certainly wouldn't want to be housebound looking after brats, but if the children were planned then looking after them is part of the territory.

SirRumpole said:

Talking to people of noco's generation I think it was more a patriarchal view that children would be better looked after if one of the parents was home to do that rather than in the workforce, and I think that there is an argument to support that, but home parenting is something to be encouraged but not enforced.

I can see the women's point of view though. I certainly wouldn't want to be housebound looking after brats, but if the children were planned then looking after them is part of the territory.

Click to expand...

in noco's day it was enforced

no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.

Value Collector said:

The stereotypes that are being used to describe muslims here e.g. fanatical extremists that beat their wives. don't apply to all immigrants, they would be a subset of the total muslim population, and the total muslim population is like 2% of Australian population.

So where is this "Critical mass"

Click to expand...

For real?

France, if not already there, is pretty close... as are other European countries.

Too many Poms in Spain was ruining their culture.

Already, parts of Uk, Germany, and other countries are severely affected...

How about whites in several countries in Africa? And how about our own example?

Value Collector said:

i

no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.

Click to expand...

And they are wrong ?

Value Collector said:

in noco's day it was enforced

no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.

Click to expand...

So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why?

Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.

Tisme said:

So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why?

Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.

Click to expand...

Religion has always been backwards. That does not mean the people of that culture are also as backward as "their" religion can be interpreted to be as backward.

Take the Arabs in the ME. Iran and Afghanistan was secular, was democratic way back in the 1950s. They might have been democratic a lot sooner if it weren't for British Imperialism but that's history right?

So in the 50s, secular and democratic Iran was overthrown, with the Shah put back on his Peacock Throne. Guess by whom?

More recently, the Arab Spring. A democratic uprising across the ME. Overturning dictators and despots.

We liberators and democratic nation building folks didn't like that did we? That goes against our national interests and international game plan. So the Arab democratic revolution was put down, quick smart. With, say, Egypt having just overthrown its US-backed dictator, put in a democratically elected president [and I'm not saying it's all great and the guy they chose were all sweet, but it's a start to a democracy...]...

Anyway, Obama went to Cairo and gave a great speech didnt he? Then soon after, under some pretext, democracy in Egypt was overthrown and a new dictator was put in place. Now receiving a few billions a year in US military aids.

Now there's Yemen. The US aren't too happy with what the Saudi has been doing so they're taking it into their own hands and this week alone, directly involves in some 30 airstrikes on Yemen. A country that's been on the edge of famine for the past two years.


As I've said before, citizens in general are liberal, nice and decent folks. This, as Howard Zinn observes, is why the gov't goes to extraordinary length to convince us that whoever it is the gov't wants to take out, they deserve it because they're evil, because they are going to attack us so it's kill or be kill.

So here we are, discussing whether or not Islam and Muslims are evil. How evil? A whole lot evil or just a little bit evil.

How they're different to us, pray all day and beat their wives and kids up all night. Because that's how you have a happy marriage and bring up a good family - physical abuse!

So maybe we privileged citizens ought to stop being useful idiots.

Maybe then millions of other people doesn't need to die or being blown to the winds; maybe then too our own warmongers don't get to spend billions and trillions on bombs and fighter jets. Maybe then we'd get to keep some of that cash and use it towards providing healthcare, education and other useless stuff like that.

That or we just keep on beating up Muslims, say how nasty they are and how superior we and our culture and people are. Feels good that way, but it won't last, would it?

SirRumpole said:

And they are wrong ?

Click to expand...

Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.

Tisme said:

So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why?

Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.

Click to expand...

Who is taking about 5000 years ago.

I am responding directly to Noco, he wants to write off an entire group of people because some of that group hold beliefs about women which were common place in his day.

Value Collector said:

Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.



Who is taking about 5000 years ago.

I am responding directly to Noco, he wants to write off an entire group of people because some of that group hold beliefs about women which were common place in his day.

Click to expand...

I think the smarter water way to look at is that Muslim women are enforced to stay at home because of their husband's religious beliefs.

I am going back to the 30s to 50s era, when the modern cons of today were not available in the years mentioned, the wife of the house was compelled, as different to enforce.

There were no washing machines or dryers .....Cloths, linen and towels were boiled in a wood fired copper, drain, rinsed, then through the blue water.......Each operation was hand wrung before being hung on the line in the back yard......With a family of three that was 4 hours work twice per week....Today, you throw the clothes washing machine add detergent, rinse material and come back in 30 minutes when the all is done.

Kids went to school with a cut lunch as there were no tuck shops.

There were no child care centres where to leave kids while Mum went to work.

Because there were no mechanical equipment to clean floors, floors were scrubbed on the woman's hands and knees.

Ironing was done with a mother pots iron heated on the stove.

Most places in those days all had wood fired stoves with a hot water tank on the side....No electrical hot water systems......Bath time for three plus Mum and Dad began when the first kid arrived home from school as there was only enough water in the stove tank for one bath at a time, then you had to wait another half hour for the tank to get hot...Sometimes we had to share a both to save time....Hot water was carried in a bucket from kitchen to bathroom....Our first electrical hot water system was installed by yours truly in 1948.

All food for the family was home cooked on the wood fire...No take away-fast food outlets

Al very time consuming.

So I hope I have enlightened you as to reasons why women stayed home to take care of the home and the family choirs.......There was no spare time for her work as well.

Value Collector said:

Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.

Click to expand...

OK, so what's your estimate ? 50% of Muslims are traditional ie woman is subservient and 50% are 'modern' ? And what is your basis for that ?

Value Collector said:

Who is taking about 5000 years ago.

Click to expand...

That's just comparative fact .. I threw that in for free

Value Collector said:

I am responding directly to Noco, he wants to write off an entire group of people because some of that group hold beliefs about women which were common place in his day.

Click to expand...

Well I'm sure your exposure over in the conflict theatre gave you some insight of the few who would have befriended you, but we all know the what happens when the fear of Western military might leaves don't we.

Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan any country with "stan" in it and women are brutalised and boko haram prevails.

Tisme said:

What old days is that? My family tree going back to the late 1600's so far is not one of abuses on women and children? In fact the women in my lineage have been well respected, been working mothers with good educations.... the men have probably been the ones well trained in fraternal obedience (we were taught to knit, crochet, cook, etc because no way were our family males going to be making women do menial tasks).

Click to expand...

I am not sure what the second question mark means but do agree with VC that I don't understand how you can know this. I only learned, when I was 60, that my great-grandfather in Scandinavia, sexually abused one of his daughters. He was charged and convicted of this when he immigrated to Australia some years later.

As for the Islam / Muslim debate: I find the fact that so many [not all] posters seem to have such inflexible ["I'm right"] views. This can perhaps make discussion pointless and the debate turns into one of defending and attacking without any listening.
My own views, and I choose not to enter the debate, include shades of gray. I have also worked with Muslim people, particularly since 1997.

Muschu said:

I am not sure what the second question mark means but do agree with VC that I don't understand how you can know this. I only learned, when I was 60, that my great-grandfather in Scandinavia, sexually abused one of his daughters. He was charged and convicted of this when he immigrated to Australia some years later.

As for the Islam / Muslim debate: I find the fact that so many [not all] posters seem to have such inflexible ["I'm right"] views. This can perhaps make discussion pointless and the debate turns into one of defending and attacking without any listening.
My own views, and I choose not to enter the debate, include shades of gray. I have also worked with Muslim people, particularly since 1997.

Click to expand...

Because I have a documented history of my family; they were among the earliest of free settlers into Oz and the women played an equally dominant role ... they had to to survive and carve out a minor legacy for their offspring. They came from good "honest" stock in the United Kingdom, where you could be jailed for life if breaking even minor laws, let alone kiddy fiddling.

This argument isn't about Afghan camel trains in the outback, isn't about Armenian migrants from the 50's, Lebanese Christians and the odd Muslim, etc. This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise. Migration into Oz had a purple patch where migration was based on skills of industry and agriculture with ability to blend into and advance our nation, not hasten its demise into a place of fear.... that time left as PC entered the room.

It's bad enough the bloodstock of the UK and Europe here argue the toss about everything, but at least they put our nation first, not some idealogue that belongs in the 7th century nomad deserts of North Africa and Middle East.

We have a lifestyle our own, and we are giving it up because we don't have the stomache to belly ache about it incase we don't get support or the aggrieved haul us through the courts using biased laws like 18C which were supposed create personal development opportunities instead of sueing for wealth creation and fame.

"This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise."

That is quite generalised really and this kind of opinion does concern me. Just my perspective.
But you may get my point that much of the "discussion" on this thread is pointless.
Let's say you are right and another poster vehemently disagrees and offers you an opposing view. Net result? Is there anything to be gained if views are fixed?
As for our families some centuries ago. On my mother's side an ancestor was jailed in Liverpool [as an Army staff sergeant] for theft. He was later sent to Australia as a convict....Research into his background reveals that he later became a teacher and then a businessman, contributing to society.
Your family seems, from everything you have learned, to have been "solid" [saying that in the most positive of senses] but surely neither of us knows the intricacies of their behaviours.
I think I've turned out OK but certainly not flawless. Can't say any more in case I am arrested.
Enjoy your day Tisme.

I am going to stick my neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.

I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.

Now how would he acquire the land from the local authority or would he just commandeer it without compensation?...Would he then take over the roads and rail and infrastructure like water supply and sewerage?..How would he maintain a continued and reliable supply of electricity?..How is he going to pay for it?

We pay out millions if not billions in welfare to Muslims who do not work or to Muslim men with 4 wives and 17 kids....Would they expect the Australian tax payer to continue with that support if they formed their own country?...I hope not......So with so many Muslims out of work how would they derive at enough money to maintain their status qua......

Would they build a new airport or expect to use Australia air ports......So going from their new Islamic country into Australia, would they not require passports and visas.......Would they be allowed to work in Australia outside their own Muslim country?

http://morningmail.org/islamic-immigration/

noco said:

I am going to stick my neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.

I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.

Now how would he acquire the land from the local authority or would he just commandeer it without compensation?...Would he then take over the roads and rail and infrastructure like water supply and sewerage?..How would he maintain a continued and reliable supply of electricity?..How is he going to pay for it?

We pay out millions if not billions in welfare to Muslims who do not work or to Muslim men with 4 wives and 17 kids....Would they expect the Australian tax payer to continue with that support if they formed their own country?...I hope not......So with so many Muslims out of work how would they derive at enough money to maintain their status qua......

Would they build a new airport or expect to use Australia air ports......So going from their new Islamic country into Australia, would they not require passports and visas.......Would they be allowed to work in Australia outside their own Muslim country?

http://morningmail.org/islamic-immigration/

Click to expand...

It took me a while to find it but here is the video referring to a Islam country in Australia.

https://www.facebook.com/

Muschu said:

"This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise."

That is quite generalised really and this kind of opinion does concern me. Just my perspective.
But you may get my point that much of the "discussion" on this thread is pointless.
Let's say you are right and another poster vehemently disagrees and offers you an opposing view. Net result? Is there anything to be gained if views are fixed?
As for our families some centuries ago. On my mother's side an ancestor was jailed in Liverpool [as an Army staff sergeant] for theft. He was later sent to Australia as a convict....Research into his background reveals that he later became a teacher and then a businessman, contributing to society.
Your family seems, from everything you have learned, to have been "solid" [saying that in the most positive of senses] but surely neither of us knows the intricacies of their behaviours.
I think I've turned out OK but certainly not flawless. Can't say any more in case I am arrested.
Enjoy your day Tisme.

Click to expand...

I do enjoy my days Muschu and I think you know that if we don't forward our arguments there is zero chance of discussion. Your argument is that we shouldn't "tar everyone with the same brush" which is very noble, but not viable. Of course we all have individual friends who are Muslim, Christian, etc, but I'm not sure if any of mine are staunchly so ... perhaps one old Catholic girl who shows great hurt at hot x buns being consumed prior Easter Sunday.

Your'e lucky, your Scandinavian savages in boats forefathers matured in a modern day race as has Germany after generations of being Europe's resident dickh3ad.

You couldn't get an apparently nicer bloke than luutzu, but even he has to defend every wannabe migrant because he superimposes his own/family struggles of refugee years. His migrant posts are misplaced, because he refuse to analyse the true impact of a non assimilating culture with a plan to carve out their own nation within a nation.

It's innate to be tribally racial. The problem for a nation is when an incipient pathological disease, cultured on a petri dish of zombie supersitition and barbarism spreads like a harmful plague.... there isn't enough of us to inoculate the mindless victims of their ancestory.