Food scarcity

[moXJO]

Australia farming as good as can be,but world wide is a different matter,and food is a weapon.
Let's not forget that this is an engineered crisis.supply chain collapse is not due to covid but covid measures.
Same for fertiliser shortage,oil price etc no physical cause or hardly but political and geopolitical move.
Most famines are due to man made crisis and this remain true,and i am not talking CC here but war, governments decisions

Supply chain is where its all falling to pieces. Multiple issues worldwide feeding into it.

 

[3 hound]

Supply chain is where its all falling to pieces. Multiple issues worldwide feeding into it.

,'Supply chain issues" appears to becoming a catch all phrase that carries no information designed to stop and divert conversation.

Be refreshing to see our media class be less satisfied with that as a response and dig a bit deeper into cause and effect.

 

[3 hound]

Lacto-vegetarian is certainly a much lower impact diet that full on meat eating.

How ever my uncle is a diary farmer, and 4 of my cousins work on diary farms, and there is a lot of standard practices in diary farms which I now realise is completely immoral when there a viable alternatives.

I envisage a world where food animals can be raised sustainably and ethically in terms of animal welfare. I fully understand why people are disgusted with some practices that persist...in these cases moral outrage is more than justified.

I don't believe veganism is a solution to feed the human population.

If I can achieve anything of value with my life it will be to contribute something toward shifting practices and attitudes toward more sustainable and ethical food production. For me veganism is niche and not a general solution....not unlike how I view the mainstream solutions to renewable energies.

 

[Value Collector]

I envisage a world where food animals can be raised sustainably and ethically in terms of animal welfare. I fully understand why people are disgusted with some practices that persist...in these cases moral outrage is more than justified.

I don't believe veganism is a solution to feed the human population.

If I can achieve anything of value with my life it will be to contribute something toward shifting practices and attitudes toward more sustainable and ethical food production. For me veganism is niche and not a general solution....not unlike how I view the mainstream solutions to renewable energies.

I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.

I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.

I started slow, I first stopped buying pig flesh, then stopped cattle, then chicken, then fish and eventually went plant based.

I am not 100% vegan, because I will still eat things that contain honey some times like a musli bar, and I don’t really have a problem with people eating things like oysters or mussels because the don’t have brains, but apart from that I am plant based.

(I don’t eat mussels or oysters though, mainly because I think they are polluted with micro plastics)

 

[3 hound]

I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.

I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.

I started slow, I first stopped buying pig flesh, then stopped cattle, then chicken, then fish and eventually went plant based.

I am not 100% vegan, because I will still eat things that contain honey some times like a musli bar, and I don’t really have a problem with people eating things like oysters or mussels because the don’t have brains, but apart from that I am plant based.

(I don’t eat mussels or oysters though, mainly because I think they are polluted with micro plastics)

A millions of animals die horrible deaths every year due to plant food production....why do your morals stop there?

Also find both interesting and convenient how you arbitrarily you draw the line with animals with brains - very anthropomorphic of you.

 

[mullokintyre]

I personally can’t see any reason why veganism can’t become main stream except for consumers own Prejudices against what they think it is and the myths they have in their head about their own impacts.

And of course Vegans don't have their own prejudices.

I used to think like you, I believed that even though animal agriculture was horrible, I thought that it was necessary and that all we needed to do was to head towards this shining light on a hill where all the animals were treated well, but over time I realised this will never be the case, and the easiest solution was to just stop buying their products.

I started slow, I first stopped buying pig flesh, then stopped cattle, then chicken, then fish and eventually went plant based.

I am not 100% vegan, because I will still eat things that contain honey some times like a musli bar, and I don’t really have a problem with people eating things like oysters or mussels because the don’t have brains, but apart from that I am plant based.

(I don’t eat mussels or oysters though, mainly because I think they are polluted with micro plastics)

What do you think happens in the animal kingdom?
All those wildlife doumentaries showing the big feline predators chasing down killing and eating the cute antelopes, Zebras and warthogs.
You don't think the prey suffer at all?
Its the natural world, humans are at the top of the food chain and have their choice.
If you don't want to eat part of the food chain, thats your choice, but thats a first world choice available to wealthy individuals who preach their superiority.
For the vast majority, tis dog eats dog, so to speak.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

And of course Vegans don't have their own prejudices.

What do you think happens in the animal kingdom?
All those wildlife doumentaries showing the big feline predators chasing down killing and eating the cute antelopes, Zebras and warthogs.
You don't think the prey suffer at all?
Its the natural world, humans are at the top of the food chain and have their choice.
If you don't want to eat part of the food chain, thats your choice, but thats a first world choice available to wealthy individuals who preach their superiority.
For the vast majority, tis dog eats dog, so to speak.
Mick

Well almost all Vegans, like me started out as Meat eaters so we understand your side and the arguments you make because we used to think exactly as you do, so we understand both sides a lot more than some one who hasn’t lived it and done the research.

I spent the first 35 years of my life eating meat, and used to think Vegans were crazy, I used hunt goats and pigs, in summer I spear fished almost every week end I free and wasn’t away with the Army some where, also as I said I come from a family with diary and sheep farming operations, I have sheered sheep etc.

So don’t think I have grown up as some sheltered vegan hippie, Before I became vegan I spent a long timing arguing against the “Crazy Vegans”, but the more I looked into it, and the more I looked at my past with fresh eyes, I realised I was wrong and they were right so I did what any intellectually honest person would do and I started making changes.

I have probably heard (and used myself) all the arguments you are likely to use against veganism and they are all bunk.

For example your argument above is just an appeal to nature, but the obvious answer to that is that just because cruelty happens in nature doesn’t mean we as humans have to add to it, in fact our society Would operate a lot worse if we took our morals from what happens in nature.

If you want to justify your actions with nature then nothing is of limits, eg rape, theft, murder etc are all common in nature, but we all agree they are good.

 

[Value Collector]

A millions of animals die horrible deaths every year due to plant food production....why do your morals stop there?

Yep, that’s true but as I discussed above a large proportion of crops are raised to feed animals in factory farms, eg only 6% of soybeans are eaten humans the bulk are eaten by chicken, pigs and cattle in factory farms.

So if you want to reduce the impact of crop farming, then you should eat less meat.

When you eat a piece of bacon, instead of a piece of toast, that pig you ate (and it’s mother) had to eat probably the equivalent of a whole loaf of bread worth of grain.

So you aren’t just forcing a pig and it’s mother to live in hell, and then be killed at 6 months old, you are also contributing a lot more to the impact of cropping than you would if you just ate the crops directly.

That’s also one of the reasons I doubt actively avoid honey, even though honey isn’t technically vegan, I do think it’s lower impact that sugar cane farming, so I don’t avoid it.

 

[JohnDe]

reading yesterdays and todays debate on the eating habits of humans has been a blast.

I reckon my household has similar 21st century eating habits of the world.
I'll eat almost anything, though most of my meals are vegetable based, I eat meat around twice a week. My wife is a pescatarian.
Our son turned vegetarian 4 or 5 years ago, tested veganism for a short time but enjoys his cheese too much. He was partially lactose intolerant as a child, small amounts was fine but not daily (caused his asthma to flare up, which he no longer has). Now he is a vegetarian 99% of the time but has indulged a few times in the past few months.
My daughter is like her dad, but often comments that we don't have enough animal protein.
My wife's teenage niece lives with us and is a vegan and has been for about 5 years. She does not stray from it.

You'd think cooking for all would be a problem, but mostly it is not. I grew up in an Italian household and most of our meals were based on the seasons and from the garden, vegetables was the biggest part of our meals, eggs and grains, and then meats and fish. I enjoy cooking, so when I do the family meals I'll modify dishes so that everyone can eat it. If I'm using animal protein I'll either separate part of it and cook two dishes. On some occasions the Vegan will miss out, because cooking three meals is possible and I have done it but I've explained that it is not going to be a regular chore. and so our vegan resident cooks for herself occasionally.

Life's not that hard. We can eat whatever we like and people can have different opinions, shar them but don't preach them.

 

[3 hound]

Yep, that’s true but as I discussed above a large proportion of crops are raised to feed animals in factory farms, eg only 6% of soybeans are eaten humans the bulk are eaten by chicken, pigs and cattle in factory farms.

So if you want to reduce the impact of crop farming, then you should eat less meat.

When you eat a piece of bacon, instead of a piece of toast, that pig you ate (and it’s mother) had to eat probably the equivalent of a whole loaf of bread worth of grain.

So you aren’t just forcing a pig and it’s mother to live in hell, and then be killed at 6 months old, you are also contributing a lot more to the impact of cropping than you would if you just ate the crops directly.

So you are not against killing of animals for your food production at all. By your morals it shouldn't matter if it was one or one million.

Your moral argument fails, you are a hypocrite.

I am a hypocrite as well but I know it.

 

[Value Collector]

So you are not against killing of animals for your food production at all. By your morals it shouldn't matter if it was one or one million.

Your moral argument fails, you are a hypocrite.

I am a hypocrite as well but I know it.

Did you actually want to discuss this in a civilised way, of are you just going to put up a straw man argument and then call names?

I (and vegans in general) fully understand that in the process of raising crops some animals will be harmed, that is kind of unavoidable in some ways, it’s a bit like some animals will be hit by cars some times, but we shouldn’t go out of our way to run over animals.

To answer your question I would say we should farm crops in the lowest impact way we can to reduce the harm, while also understanding that nothing is zero harm.

So if we know that raising crops has ethical and environmental impacts, we shouldn’t also waste them by putting them into factory farms, and we should limit all food waste as much as possible.

 

[3 hound]

Did you actually want to discuss this in a civilised way, of are you just going to put up a straw man argument and then call names?

I (and vegans in general) fully understand that in the process of raising crops some animals will be harmed, that is kind of unavoidable in some ways, it’s a bit like some animals will be hit by cars some times, but we shouldn’t go out of our way to run over animals.

To answer your question I would say we should farm crops in the lowest impact way we can to reduce the harm, while also understanding that nothing is zero harm.

So if we know that raising crops has ethical and environmental impacts, we shouldn’t also waste them by putting them into factory farms, and we should limit all food waste as much as possible.

Your argument above is also equally valid for food animal production.

I don't know why you can't see you are only different by degrees.

 

[3 hound]

For example your argument above is just an appeal to nature,

An appeal to nature is logically valid unless you can demonstrate that we are supernatural.

Vegans are also animals and your existence equates to a lot of energy consumption, death, cruelty and destruction.

Buddhists have recognised this for centuries. Vegans (what I am getting from you at least) seem to be in denial about it and think they are above it and above nature.

 

[Value Collector]

Your argument above is also equally valid for food animal production.

I don't know why you can't see you are only different by degrees.

I don’t really understand what you are saying, my point is that I choose a plant based diet because it is lower impact than a diet based on animals, I have never claimed it’s zero impact.

Is you argument that because a plant based diet is not zero impact then it’s not worth switching? Because that seems silly.

If one system is having a huge negative impact, an alternative doesn’t have to be zero impact for it to be worth while switching, it just has to be better.

Vegans are also animals and your existence equates to a lot of energy consumption, death, cruelty and destruction.

Buddhists have recognised this for centuries. Vegans (what I am getting from you at least) seem to be in denial about it and think they are above it and above nature.

What exactly do you think I am in denial about?

I have admitted straight out that plant based foods have an impact, and that they are not zero cruelty, as I said going plant based just has less cruelty.

You yourself said that you want to help make a change in the way food is made, what changes are you making? How are you trying to reduce animal suffering in the food system.

 

[3 hound]

I don’t really understand what you are saying, my point is that I choose a plant based diet because it is lower impact than a diet based on animals, I have never claimed it’s zero impact.

Is you argument that because a plant based diet is not zero impact then it’s not worth switching? Because that seems silly.

If one system is having a huge negative impact, an alternative doesn’t have to be zero impact for it to be worth while switching, it just has to be better.




What exactly do you think I am in denial about?

I have admitted straight out that plant based foods have an impact, and that they are not zero cruelty, as I said going plant based just has less cruelty.

You yourself said that you want to help make a change in the way food is made, what changes are you making? How are you trying to reduce animal suffering in the food system.

Fair questions, roughly speaking; I am moving toward personal involvement in the raising and killing of the animals I consume (in practice it's logistically problematic), in the appropriate venues I promote low stress animal handling methods. I am heavily involved in motivational based working dog training. I confront cruelty directly. I respectfully spread information about sustainable methods, I intervene in some personal crisis situations to support and shift to more holistic approaches that include the individual as a valuable part of the whole farming system.

 

[Value Collector]

Fair questions, roughly speaking; I am moving toward personal involvement in the raising and killing of the animals I consume (in practice it's logistically problematic), in the appropriate venues I promote low stress animal handling methods. I am heavily involved in motivational based working dog training. I confront cruelty directly. I respectfully spread information about sustainable methods, I intervene in some personal crisis situations to support and shift to more holistic approaches that include the individual as a valuable part of the whole farming system.

So what does all that mean in practice? Are you planning to avoid all animals products except the ones you kill yourself?

It sounds like you recognise that there are cruelty and suffering issues with the current system, do you really think that the system you are talking about eg. “Killing your own” is a scalable system?

Sorry, to load you up with questions, but since you already accept that the animal agriculture industry is full of suffering, why would you be mad at me for wanting to avoid it and instead use my money on plant based foods?

 

[Value Collector]

Just incase people are wondering why I am against animal agriculture, check out this video.

This video is from an RSPCA approved slaughter house in Melbourne, that kills the pigs by choking them in a carbon dioxide gas chamber, you can see that it is not a quick death, and unfortunately this is just the end of a long line of suffering.

We don’t even treat our worst criminals like we treat these innocent animals.

 

[3 hound]

So what does all that mean in practice? Are you planning to avoid all animals products except the ones you kill yourself?

It's not a simple thing to set up but that is indeed the plan, I am not there yet and not sure if I will ever have the means to pull it off 100% but gonna give it a good try

It sounds like you recognise that there are cruelty and suffering issues with the current system, do you really think that the system you are talking about eg. “Killing your own” is a scalable system?

I thought I was abundantly clear that I recognise and loath the cruelty in current systems and practices. I am not trying scale anything more than a scale of one. That one would be me (see first comment).

Sorry, to load you up with questions, but since you already accept that the animal agriculture industry is full of suffering, why would you be mad at me for wanting to avoid it and instead use my money on plant based foods?

Firstly I'm not mad at anyone, it's comments on a frikkin internet forum. You are not important enough to me to get mad at.

 

[Value Collector]

I thought I was abundantly clear that I recognise and loath the cruelty in current systems and practices.

But you are still currently supporting that system financially by buying their products right?

I think if you actually spend some time thinking about it, you will realise that moving to a more plant based diet is one of the quickest and simplest ways the average person can reduce the cruelty and suffering they cause, so if it’s something that you care about, maybe ease up on making disparaging comments about plant based diets and veganism, and maybe learn a bit more about how you can increase the portion of your diet derived from plants.

 

[3 hound]

But you are still currently supporting that system financially by buying their products right?

I think if you actually spend some time thinking about it, you will realise that moving to a more plant based diet is one of the quickest and simplest ways the average person can reduce the cruelty and suffering they cause, so if it’s something that you care about, maybe ease up on making disparaging comments about plant based diets and veganism, and maybe learn a bit more about how you can increase the portion of your diet derived from plants.

Geez this is getting repetitive, I support some aspects - I have leather boots for work which are mandatory. Like you made a long response about reducing your impact, that applies to me and others as well. I have gave a list of what I am doing about it. I have said all along we are both hypocrites, I just seem to be aware of my own hypocrisy than you yours.

i haven't started to make disparaging comments about plant based diets in fact I haven't mentioned anything about nutrition at all. Are you even paying attention or are you just playing back all the standard counter arguments you have internalized regardless of what I say.