Feminism

[Tisme]

But look, I can see you manner has changed from your usual self, perhaps this topic is personal to you, I dont want to upset you, so I will leave it there.

I could see that coming. You behaved as I predicted, as many/most man would behave (me included) when confronted with the prospect of hurting the (only) woman....which makes its own point about majority versus minority behaviours of men towards women.

 

[sydboy007]

http://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/the-hidden-downside-of-being-a-powerful-woman.html?cid=sf01001

The researchers write that women with job authority face the so-called double bind, in which their actual job duties conflict with cultural stereotypes about the role of women. "On the one hand, they are expected to be nurturant, caring and agreeable, consistent with the normative cultural constructions of feminity," the researchers write. "On the other hand, they are also expected to be assertive and authoritative, consistent with the expectations of the leadership role." Women are often viewed as lacking the assertiveness and confidence associated with strong leaders, but if women do come across as assertive or confident, they get criticized for being unfeminine.

The result: Stress. And sometimes, depression. Whereas male leaders have the highest levels of life satisfaction, women leaders, in general, have life satisfaction about equal to that of women with supposedly lower-status occupations, or women who don't work outside the home at all.

But it's not just subordinates who may be unhappy with a female boss. Next time you're at a cocktail party--and I don’t think my social circle is particularly retrograde--watch what happens when both men and women are asked some version of, "What do you do?" When a guy gives a description of his big job at Hypermegaglobalcorp, all the other guys, and plenty of the women, will act interested and impressed. Socially, the guy gets a big ol' slap on the back. When a woman talks about her big job at Hypermegaglobalcorp, it's too often met with a stare that says, "Oh, so that's why the homework isn't getting done, and your kids look like rug rats."

 

[Craton]

I give up and withdraw. I started the thread to discuss what 'feminism' means these days.
There have, to my great appreciation, been some genuinely thoughtful responses.

But when it becomes an exercise in sophistry, with males purporting to understand what rape is to women, even when little children are the targets, it's entirely pointless.

As the sole female contributor up against the dominant male opinion, I should have known better.

Please do not give up Julia. I for one value your views and input not only here but elsewhere in ASF.

I am a little disappointed that more female ASF members have not contributed to this thread although not surprising, as you pointed out, in a male dominated world.

So back to what feminism means.

Thinking outside of my own personal subjective reactions and experiences and thanks to Google Fu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism, over time the definition of what feminism aimed to achieve has changed or become refined.

In recent times, it seems agreed that the feminist movement or feminism, had it's early beginnings with the Suffragette movement (voting rights, property rights, etc), then changed with the second wave feminist movement (burning the bra circa the 60's, 70's and 80's, defacto rights, job equality, sexual and physical abuse, etc) to now where feminism has morphed into a third wave of feminism.

This third wave being termed neo-feminism circa 1990 onwards, aiming to address the failings of the 2nd wave. Abolishing gender role expectations and stereotypes, and defending sex work, pornography, reproductive rights, etc, the so-called "Lipstick Feminism" of today. From a personal perspective this neo-feminism is very similar to what I view feminism to be.

Memory tells me that it takes around 20~30yrs (barring major events like world wars) for cultural attitudes to change and to permeate, become accepted and solidify throughout society, the preceding seems about right.

Now if we are in the era of neo-feminism, an era where women can choose to be whatever they set out to be, apart from equal pay and more women in positions of authority and leaving, sexual harassment, rape and DV out of it, where to from here for the modern woman and the feminist movement aka feminism?

Is it just a question of keeping the pressure on and awareness up, or as has been the case, refining what has come before and bringing on a fourth wave?

 

[SirRumpole]

Feminism has contributed to the entrance of women into jobs where traditionally they have not been before.

Airline pilots, police and army combat roles to name a few.

Given that women are physically and psychologically different from men, discussion seems to have been squashed as to whether men are more suitable than women for some jobs, and also vice versa.

So, can there be true "equality" when men and women have different physical, psychological and mental characteristics ?

It sometimes irks me when education feminists think it's a national tragedy that there are less girls than boys doing certain subjects at school and uni. Maybe they just don't want to ? Surely our educational establishments don't practise discrimination in the subjects students can take ?

http://theconversation.com/study-finds-more-girls-opting-out-of-maths-and-science-12221

 

[Craton]

Feminism has contributed to the entrance of women into jobs where traditionally they have not been before.

Airline pilots, police and army combat roles to name a few.

Given that women are physically and psychologically different from men, discussion seems to have been squashed as to whether men are more suitable than women for some jobs, and also vice versa.

So, can there be true "equality" when men and women have different physical, psychological and mental characteristics ?

SR, that would be taking a very broad brush. I would suggest that instead of speaking in generalised terms, each of us be awarded by our individual traits much as Pixel has shown.

Surely you'd agree that there a instances where a woman could do a man's work/job equally, if not better and the same in reverse.

Physical: no argument there, it's a biological fact but I've met women that I'd never want to tangle with and I'm no minnow.

Psychological: Perhaps, just perhaps, men need to take a leaf or two out of the women's handbook on this one or, a by-product of our male dominated world.

Mental: Spatial versus abstract? Again, perhaps a by-product of our male dominated world.

At the very least, a most pleasing complimentary arrangement.

Further, the thought of women being equal is a very new notion within our society, barely a hundred years so I'd like to see how we've fared say in a couple of hundred years. Yet, like share trading, keeping the emotions by both parties out of it is the real challenge because I'm damn sure we can be equally emotional.

Ah, you've added to your post...

I'd say the fact that reproduction of our species plays a big part in a woman's choice of educational pathways and indeed, career paths. All of which feminism tries to address IMHO.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'd say the fact that reproduction of our species plays a big part in a woman's choice of educational pathways and indeed, career paths. All of which feminism tries to address IMHO.

What does feminism try to "address" in the way of female career paths ?

Surely a woman's career path should be what she wants it to be, not a contest with men in particular educational areas ?

As I said, some people think it's a tragedy that girls don't take maths or science as much as boys. I think it's because girls in general are less interested in those subjects and I don't think they should be pushed into those areas for the sake of some feminist theory that they have to prove themselves "equal" to men in those areas.

eg is it a problem that there are more female nurses than males in that profession ? Should the "masculists" complain about it ?

 

[Craton]

Yes, fair enough, probably too much generalisation on my part.

What does feminism try to "address" in the way of female career paths ?

Surely a woman's career path should be what she wants it to be, not a contest with men in particular educational areas ?

Agreed and that's most definitely addressed by feminism.

As I said, some people think it's a tragedy that girls don't take maths or science as much as boys. I think it's because girls in general are less interested in those subjects and I don't think they should be pushed into those areas for the sake of some feminist theory that they have to prove themselves "equal" to men in those areas.

Also agree that no one should be pushed into a "gender contest" and seriously doubt feminists set out to do this to prove a theory.

From that article it appears that our education system is at fault if maths is no longer a 'core' subject. If memory serves correctly, both Maths and Science along with English were must do subjects when I was at high school. That being said, I was part of the last tranche that sat for the Leaving Certificate as it was called back then.

If maths and science interest or take up is so disproportionate against the female gender and from that article the numbers speak for themselves, we must determine why this is the case. Of more interest, why is it important that women are represented in this space?

I can't see it as a contest or theoretical ploy but I can understand the concern as without that female representation, women orientated studies/research et al, done by women (especially for women) and from a purely female perspective, without it, this will mean that male domination, male bias and the male perspective is inbuilt into those fields of endeavour. Again, making it easy to buy into the male dominated ethos. A downside is that it would be seen as playing right into the feminist hands.

So yeah, I can see the reasoning behind the need to encourage more female participation in the upper echelons of maths and science.

eg is it a problem that there are more female nurses than males in that profession ? Should the "masculists" complain about it ?

Interesting. I think you're making the incorrect distinction between equality in terms of rights and the equality in terms of the percentage of any gender within any given profession. I think it is a given that some professions will have a bias one way or another. If it means a very low percentage of females in maths and science because of a natural penchant against these disciplines so be it.

Still, in terms of job equality, I'd like to see how we fare in a couple of hundred years time simply because women being accepted and treated as equals, is relatively new in the scheme of things.

 

[SirRumpole]

So yeah, I can see the reasoning behind the need to encourage more female participation in the upper echelons of maths and science.

So I wonder if we should have separate strands of Maths and Science specifically aimed at boys and girls ?

I wonder how that would be done. Possibly taking into account what we know from neurology as to how males and females think differently. Having women teachers & scientists set the syllabus for the girls course, and men for the boys course ?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Please excuse my entrance in to this topic.

I am aware, as you all should be that people in 100 years time people will p themselves laughing at our conclusions as we do of those heading in to the Great War 100 years ago.

I am male, of Viking and Celt ancestry, presently defined as Australian.

My view of women is as mothers, aunts, sisters, daughters and delightful others and wise others.

I see Feminism as a passing fad to assuage the guilt of over-educated women, much as over-educated men bemoan the fact that they are not rich, or have a beautiful girlfriend, or powerful or some other such transient grasp at power.

Feminists are as much muppets as the over-educated.

They seek what they will never have.. Friendship, intimacy and belonging.

Just my take on it all.

gg

 

[SirRumpole]

Please excuse my entrance in to this topic.

I'm sure you are always welcome oh wise one.

 

[Julia]

Surely you'd agree that there a instances where a woman could do a man's work/job equally, if not better and the same in reverse.

An example of this might be in finance/investment. I know a couple of female full service brokers, but no female financial planners. All but a very few economists and other commentators on finance, markets, and investment are male.

On retirement and super forums, a common remark is "if anything happens to me my wife wouldn't have any idea how to manage the Super". Yet no suggestion that this be changed.

On this forum the membership is overwhelmingly male. The occasional comment comes from another female on politics or religion. Why is it so? There are no physiological or age related factors that should deter women from being good at making money, yet there seems to be still an outdated assumption amongst some men, and women for that matter, that it belongs to the boys' club.

 

[SirRumpole]

On this forum the membership is overwhelmingly male. The occasional comment comes from another female on politics or religion. Why is it so? There are no physiological or age related factors that should deter women from being good at making money, yet there seems to be still an outdated assumption amongst some men, and women for that matter, that it belongs to the boys' club.

There are a number of highly placed female executives, business owners, judges, barristers, scientists, you name it so there don't appear to be as many barriers in the way of women making it big in whatever they want to do as there were in years past.

I think we need to distinguish between areas where there is still some discrimination by the "boy's club" and those areas that women generally aren't particularly interested in, and we should be careful not to engage in gender warfare on a false premise.

 

[Craton]

So I wonder if we should have separate strands of Maths and Science specifically aimed at boys and girls ?

I wonder how that would be done. Possibly taking into account what we know from neurology as to how males and females think differently. Having women teachers & scientists set the syllabus for the girls course, and men for the boys course ?

I don't think that would be necessary but if it's a solution, why not?
However I'll defer discussion on that to others more suitably qualified to comment.

You've mentioned the neurological differences between the sexes a few times now, please expand on this for me. On second thought, nope, it's OK. I'll DMOR.

 

[SirRumpole]

Julia, you rightly pointed out that this forum is mostly male. Personally I would like to see a higher input by females, and there is no barrier to that happening.

Perhaps ladies are more worried about being shouted down by more aggressive males (I know that doesn't bother you as I've found out a few times ), however there is always going to be argument and debate on forums, so maybe it is a generally female characteristic to avoid confrontation even on an anonymous forum. I've noticed this on other forums too.

 

[Knobby22]

I would not be surprised if some of the members that we think are male are actually female. We know what stuff the girls go through including one who was hassled in this forum. In fact I think you might really be a girl Sir Rumpole (just kidding).

 

[SirRumpole]

. In fact I think you might really be a girl Sir Rumpole (just kidding).

What gives you that idea sweetheart ?

 

[Knobby22]

She who must be obeyed.

 

[Value Collector]

On this forum the membership is overwhelmingly male. The occasional comment comes from another female on politics or religion. Why is it so? There are no physiological or age related factors that should deter women from being good at making money, yet there seems to be still an outdated assumption amongst some men, and women for that matter, that it belongs to the boys' club.

I guess it also comes down to personal interest, I don't think there is an absense of women because of sexism, they just don't choose to visit this site.

There are probably lots of female dominated sites, on various other topics.

I am a feminist, but I am against mandating certain participation levels in things, I mean I am against forcing boards or managements to have certain numbers of each sex mandated.

I don't care whether board members are male or female, as long as they have the skills, but to say " we better higher her because we need to up our female / male ratio" is wrong.

 

[Craton]

Possibly taking into account what we know from neurology as to how males and females think differently.

If men and women do think differently, it seems to be a result of our culture not biology.

From here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...e-different-brains-claims-neuroscientist.html

Men and women do not have different brains, claims neuroscientist
Neuroscientist Prof Gina Rippon claims male and female brains only differ because of the relentless ‘drip, drip, drip’ of gender stereotyping.

The idea that men are from Mars and women are from Venus, with male and female brains wired differently, is a myth which has no basis in science, a professor has claimed.

Neuroscientist Prof Gina Rippon, of Aston University, Birmingham, says gender differences emerge only through environmental factors and are not innate.

Recent studies have suggested that female brains are more suited to social skills, memory and multi-tasking, while men are better at perception and co-ordinated movement.

However, speaking on International Women’s Day, Prof Rippon will claim that any differences in brain circuitry only come about through the ‘drip, drip, drip’ of gender stereotyping.

“The bottom line is that saying there are differences in male and female brains is just not true. There is pretty compelling evidence that any differences are tiny and are the result of environment not biology,” said Prof Rippon.

“You can’t pick up a brain and say ‘that’s a girls brain, or that’s a boys brain’ in the same way you can with the skeleton. They look the same.”

Prof Rippon points to earlier studies that showed the brains of London black cab drivers physically changed after they had acquired The Knowledge – an encyclopaedic recall of the capital’s streets.

She believes differences in male and female brains are due to similar cultural stimuli. A women’s brain may therefore become ‘wired’ for multi-tasking simply because society expects that of her and so she uses that part of her brain more often. The brain adapts in the same way as a muscle gets larger with extra use.

“What often isn’t picked up on is how plastic and permeable the brain is. It is changing throughout out lifetime

“The world is full of stereotypical attitudes and unconscious bias. It is full of the drip, drip, drip of the gendered environment.”

Prof Rippon believes that gender differences appear early in western societies and are based on traditional stereotypes of how boys and girls should behave and which toys they should play with.

Segregating the way children play – giving dolls to girls and cars to boys – could be changing how their brains develop, she claims.

“I think gender differences in toys is a bad thing. A lot of people say it is trivial. They say girls like to be princesses. But these things are pervasive in the developing brain and stifle potential.

“Often boys toys are much more training based whereas girls toys are more nurturing. It’s sending out an early message about what is expected in a child’s future.”

Earlier this year Consumer Affairs minister Jenny Willott said that women were being forced into professions that paid less well because of gender stereotyping when they are children.

Girls were often guided into low paying occupations like nursing because of the types of toys they were given to play with, she claimed. This led to an over-representation of women among nurses – and of men among engineers and physicists

Debenhams has stopped gender specific labelling of toys – Mark and Spencer was now its own brand of toys more “gender neutral”.

Megan Perryman, who co-founded Let Toys Be Toys, a campaigning group against gender stereotyping said: "In our experience, children enjoy a range of toys and it's important they are encouraged to play with anything that interests them.

“Telling boys not to play at being caring, or girls to avoid toys involving science or physical activity can only serve to limit their potential.

“Children learn these 'rules' of how to be a boy or girl at a very young age, via marketing, media and those around them. It can be upsetting to the child if their interests do not conform and can prevent them from being the people they really are."

 

[SirRumpole]

If men and women do think differently, it seems to be a result of our culture not biology.

From here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...e-different-brains-claims-neuroscientist.html

I wonder if the author of that article is a feminist.

Research has shown that the structure of men's and women brains are different and that leads to a different way of thinking by the sexes. One is not more or less intelligent than the other, they just use grey and white cells in different ways.

Men and women do think differently, at least where the anatomy of the brain is concerned, according to a new study.

The brain is made primarily of two different types of tissue, called gray matter and white matter. This new research reveals that men think more with their gray matter, and women think more with white. Researchers stressed that just because the two sexes think differently, this does not affect intellectual performance.

Psychology professor Richard Haier of the University of California, Irvine led the research along with colleagues from the University of New Mexico. Their findings show that in general, men have nearly 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence compared with women, whereas women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence compared to men.

"These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior," said Haier, adding that, "by pinpointing these gender-based intelligence areas, the study has the potential to aid research on dementia and other cognitive-impairment diseases in the brain."

The results are detailed in the online version of the journal NeuroImage.

In human brains, gray matter represents information processing centers, whereas white matter works to network these processing centers.

The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.

Scientists find it very interesting that while men and women use two very different activity centers and neurological pathways, men and women perform equally well on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as intelligence tests.

This research also gives insight to why different types of head injuries are more disastrous to one sex or the other. For example, in women 84 percent of gray matter regions and 86 percent of white matter regions involved in intellectual performance were located in the frontal lobes, whereas the percentages of these regions in a man's frontal lobes are 45 percent and zero, respectively. This matches up well with clinical data that shows frontal lobe damage in women to be much more destructive than the same type of damage in men.

Both Haier and Jung hope that this research will someday help doctors diagnose brain disorders in men and women earlier, as well as provide help designing more effective and precise treatments for brain damage.

http://www.livescience.com/3808-men-women-differently.html

The article you posted seems fairly typical of feminists who try and alter the reality of biology to mesh with their own views of "equality".