Feminism

[dutchie]

If they were to turn their outrage instead to the reality of the powerlessness of some women they might have some reasonable claim to be acting on behalf of the sisterhood.

Like this incredible situation:

Democratic Republic of Congo: The worst place in the world to be a woman

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...ld-to-be-a-woman/story-fnq2o7dd-1227135044653

An estimated 48 women are raped in the country every hour.

Horrific.

 

[Craton]

Like this incredible situation:

Democratic Republic of Congo: The worst place in the world to be a woman

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...ld-to-be-a-woman/story-fnq2o7dd-1227135044653

An estimated 48 women are raped in the country every hour.

Horrific.

Shocking to say the least.
I don't get it. What is the attraction of raping? How in the hell can this non-consensual behaviour be deemed anything but feral, barbaric and savage in the extreme?

Peer pressure, yep piss ant excuse. Makes one feel like a man. Seriously? Is it the hormones? Is it a mental disease?

I know the perpetrators are mental that's for sure. Me, I just don't get it, I simply fail to see any attraction in this type of behaviour. Sure I get horny as hell but I don't go and frigging rape someone simply to satisfy my urges, sheesh!

The frightening thing is that it is endemic through all parts of our society from the kiddie fiddler to the abuser of the frail, aged and disabled and everything else in between. These monsters that walk amongst us don't have a care for their victims, they stalk their prey and/or take advantage in an instant like the predators they are, and just like a pox on the earth, they must be eradicated, must become the hunted and victims must speak out against it and we, must protect those in fear.

 

[johenmo]

It seems nice guys finish last in some women's eyes as they go for the beefcake rather that the brains.

I can't understand those women who say they prefer "bad boys" because they're more exciting. Time & time again I have seen the relationships fail, the woman say never again, & then repeat the error. And I don't understand the reverse either.

I work in a male-oriented workplace and quite a few females who have made it up the ladder have not been good examples - with a completely different set of behaviours based around their femininity for those can help them and those who can't. Fortunately we have had some who were brilliant role models of how to achieve without being nasty.

There's a side of "feminism" that I don't like. Where a woman wants to have & raise children & the couple may decide that one will stay at home. And it fits what she wants so she has a full-time job with her children. And then she is treated poorly socially because of this choice. Other females saying "Oh" then turning away to talk to other females (who work). They then may not want to socialise because of this - that if you don't work, you're worthless. I have talked with lots of women who have had this role in a partnership/marriage/relationship/call it what you like & it hurts and saddens them. I believe this will take a long time to correct because it doesn't fit the model.

 

[Julia]

Shocking to say the least.
I don't get it. What is the attraction of raping? How in the hell can this non-consensual behaviour be deemed anything but feral, barbaric and savage in the extreme?

Peer pressure, yep piss ant excuse. Makes one feel like a man. Seriously? Is it the hormones? Is it a mental disease?

I know the perpetrators are mental that's for sure. Me, I just don't get it, I simply fail to see any attraction in this type of behaviour. Sure I get horny as hell but I don't go and frigging rape someone simply to satisfy my urges, sheesh!

Rape is much more about power than simple sexual desire. If it were just sex, the offenders could use prostitutes if they are unable to attract willing partners. Consider the depraved individual who rapes an 80 year old woman. Nothing to do with desire or sexual compulsion.

It's about diminishing women, regarding them as objects to be used, chattels in many societies.

There's a side of "feminism" that I don't like. Where a woman wants to have & raise children & the couple may decide that one will stay at home. And it fits what she wants so she has a full-time job with her children. And then she is treated poorly socially because of this choice. Other females saying "Oh" then turning away to talk to other females (who work). They then may not want to socialise because of this - that if you don't work, you're worthless. I have talked with lots of women who have had this role in a partnership/marriage/relationship/call it what you like & it hurts and saddens them. I believe this will take a long time to correct because it doesn't fit the model.

Thanks for your contribution, johenmo. Such women simply need not care what others say about them.
They have made the choice that they find right for their family. End of story. No obligation to meet the expectations of others.

 

[Value Collector]

Rape is much more about power than simple sexual desire. If it were just sex, the offenders could use prostitutes if they are unable to attract willing partners. Consider the depraved individual who rapes an 80 year old woman. Nothing to do with desire or sexual compulsion.

It's about diminishing women, regarding them as objects to be used, chattels in many societies.



.

I think there would be a lot of cases where its about power, but I think a lot of date rape situations are just about not taking no for an answer. Also there are men who genuinely find elderly women attractive, so we can't say the raping of elderly women is all about power and not sexual attraction.

There was a doco on the abc the other week about elderly prostitutes, they were very busy ladies, it's not my glass of rum, but there must be a market for it.

A guy I used to work with is currently in jail for rape, he says he is innocent and didnt have sex with her, I have no idea I wasn't there, but if the story the girl said was true, then he was drunk and didn't take the hint when she was saying no, and despite her objections date raped her.

I dont think he is the type of guy to do it for power, but who knows, his life is ruined now.

 

[sptrawler]

Feminism to me, is about being with the same lady for 40 years, she annoys the hell out of me and has a reluctance to paid work.

However she has a love of keeping a beautifully clean house, is always there to give counsel, to our adult children.
Has at times de railed fantastic opportunities, and on other occassions been the reason to avoid disaster.

Is disciplined, if somewhat conservative. Has a love of learning and a hate of t.v.
She is very self disciplned, and somewhat routine in her behaviour.
Thankfully it all helps, with balancing my general neglect to detail.

She is the person, we all go to for an objective view, it might not be the answer we want.
But it will be objective, with a feminist bent.

Yes she is the matriarch

 

[Calliope]

I have just read a true crime book by Jack Olsen called 'Salt of the Earth". A reviewer said of Olsen;

"If anyone ever had the gall to question the role of women in our lives, that the female is without doubt, the stronger sex, Jack Olsen proves by example that it is the strong females in our lives that hold us together and do not allow us to fall into an oblivion of self-hatred and despair - it is the females in our lives we need the most"

I commend the book.

 

[Julia]

VC, yes, date rape is still rape. It's still a man using his power over a woman.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a woman
and
2. have been raped

it's not possible to understand the reality.

 

[SirRumpole]

VC, yes, date rape is still rape. It's still a man using his power over a woman.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a woman
and
2. have been raped

it's not possible to understand the reality.

Males can be raped too, by other males.

 

[Value Collector]

VC, yes, date rape is still rape. It's still a man using his power over a woman.

.

I understand date rape is still rape, that's not what I was discussing, I was talking about motive.

You suggested a mans only motive for rape was "having power", I agreed that is probably a contributing motive in a lot of cases, But I don't think it would be the only motive.

Offcourse being able to overpower your victim is necessary for a rape to occur, but doesn't mean the motive or enjoyment comes from the act of overpowering alone.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a woman
and
2. have been raped

it's not possible to understand the reality

the victim doesn't necessarily have better insights to the motive of the crime.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a man
and
2. have been a rapist

it's not possible to understand the reality

( this play on words doesn't in anyway suggest I am a rapist, I am simply turning the argument around to make a point)

 

[Tisme]

VC, yes, date rape is still rape. It's still a man using his power over a woman.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a woman
and
2. have been raped

it's not possible to understand the reality.

Julie you need to be careful you don't shutdown the commentary you sought to engage in by using selective hearing. As impudent and insensitive some post might be, you are actually getting involved in a subject we men have been conditioned to avoid for fear of the ramifications and hurt they may cause.

 

[Craton]

That's an interesting observation re. rape Tisme

...we men have been conditioned to avoid for fear of the ramifications and hurt they may cause

Back to the OP topic then, feminism implies an anti-rape stance doesn't it not?

If Julia's dominance theory holds true then feminism is a protest against male dominance too.

However, rape whether man on woman, vise versa or same sex is a violation of the victim's rights and this is what gets up my nose. Those that use without consent another as one's own sex toy and think they are beyond reproach are simply fricking oxygen thieves. If these monsters morals are set so slow, how in the hell can they be allowed function within our society?

Does feminism address this?

Sorry. </ end rant>

 

[SirRumpole]

Does feminism address this?

I'm not sure that it has to, by itself anyway. Rape is a crime, the whole of society should address it.

 

[Julia]

You suggested a mans only motive for rape was "having power", I agreed that is probably a contributing motive in a lot of cases, But I don't think it would be the only motive.

Please do not misquote me. I said:

Rape is much more about power than simple sexual desire.

I absolutely did not suggest a man's only motive for rape was having power. To actually rape anyone involves overpowering them, so on a purely physical basis it's about power, quite obviously. And then there's the dominance issue which at least Craton has the sense to recognise.

the victim doesn't necessarily have better insights to the motive of the crime.

You have no idea what you're talking about. If a woman has been the victim of repeated bashings and sexual degradation, the man making it clear to her on a sustained basis that she will not refuse him whatever he wants, that she has no rights, and that she'd better co-operate if she doesn't want to be killed, she isn't in any doubt about what motivates him, I can assure you.

I'd like to suggest to you that unless:

1. you are a man
and
2. have been a rapist

it's not possible to understand the reality

( this play on words doesn't in anyway suggest I am a rapist, I am simply turning the argument around to make a point)

By all means engage in your sophistry in other matters, VC, but perhaps have a little more sensitivity when it comes to something as vile as rape.
And on this:

There was a doco on the abc the other week about elderly prostitutes, they were very busy ladies, it's not my glass of rum, but there must be a market for it.

You might like to provide a link to these prostitutes in their 80s.

Julie you need to be careful you don't shutdown the commentary you sought to engage in by using selective hearing.

It's Julia, Tisme.

As impudent and insensitive some post might be, you are actually getting involved in a subject we men have been conditioned to avoid for fear of the ramifications and hurt they may cause.

Could you expand on this? I'm not clear what you mean.

It is simply a reality that rape is something too many women have experienced. If that's uncomfortable for men, that's unfortunate.
It was even more unfortunate for a child raped systematically over several years by a grandfather, and whose father subsequently asserted that he could understand how it would happen because said grandfather probably wasn't getting as much sex as he needed from the grandmother, and he had to get a bit from somewhere.

There is a real problem when a child's father regards her as an appropriate sexual toy for an old man.

Back to the OP topic then, feminism implies an anti-rape stance doesn't it not?

If Julia's dominance theory holds true then feminism is a protest against male dominance too.

However, rape whether man on woman, vise versa or same sex is a violation of the victim's rights and this is what gets up my nose. Those that use without consent another as one's own sex toy and think they are beyond reproach are simply fricking oxygen thieves. If these monsters morals are set so slow, how in the hell can they be allowed function within our society?

Does feminism address this?

Sorry. </ end rant>

Not a rant at all, Craton. Your concern and anger is much valued.
Does feminism address this? Ideally, but my original objections to the feminazi brigade go to the devaluing of serious rape and other sexual, physical and emotional abuse, when screams of outrage occur somewhat unnecessarily.

On RN Breakfast this morning, Kelly interviewed a cadet from some years ago in the Defence Academy along with Neil James, well known commentator on defence matters. She claimed 'bullying and harassment'. She did not, as far as I heard, specify what this constituted. She said friends were raped. She did not explain whether they had lodged complaints or not.

Neil James quoted an accusation of abuse: it constituted the complainant hearing a male cadet tell a dirty joke.

 

[Value Collector]

Please do not misquote me.

Ok when you said this:

Rape is much more about power than simple sexual desire. If it were just sex, the offenders could use prostitutes if they are unable to attract willing partners. Consider the depraved individual who rapes an 80 year old woman. Nothing to do with desire or sexual compulsion.

You are giving me the impression that your saying the motive for rape, is to experience power.

What I am saying is that if you think it's just about power rather than sexual desire, you would be wrong. You also hinted that you think men can't be attracted to 80 year old women, so rape involving them is nothing to do with sexual desire, that's wrong also.

To actually rape anyone involves overpowering them, so on a purely physical basis it's about power, quite obviously

To actually bash and rob anyone involves overpowering them, so on a purely physical basis it's about power, not money.

See what I did there, just because you have to over power the victim, doesn't mean your motive is experiencing power, It some cases it may be, but not all and I wouldn't think most.

You have no idea what you're talking about. If a woman has been the victim of repeated bashings and sexual degradation, the man making it clear to her on a sustained basis that she will not refuse him whatever he wants, that she has no rights, and that she'd better co-operate if she doesn't want to be killed, she isn't in any doubt about what motivates him, I can assure you.

In that case of repetition maybe, but one off incidents unless he clearly explains his motives, how would she know. All she knows is what she sees.

If I got bashed and robbed, I would have no idea of the motives, all I would know is that I have been bashed and robbed, the possible motives vary 1, it could be a power / a thrill thing 2, did he need drug money 3, was it to prove himself to get into a gang 4, did some hire him to get back at me. who knows?

By all means engage in your sophistry in other matters, VC, but perhaps have a little more sensitivity when it comes to something as vile as rape

Well that's offensive.

My comment was simple, when you say this

Rape is much more about power than simple sexual desire

I think your going to be wrong in a lot of cases, I can't see how I am making a false argument or being insensitive.

What's insensitive about saying there are many different reasons rapes happen including sexual desire.

 

[Value Collector]

You might like to provide a link to these prostitutes in their 80s.

Here is the documentary, it's about grandmothers who are escorts, if you just want to see the 84year old prostitute fast forward to 6.45 minute mark ( she appears again at the 13min mark and 29.50 min mark)

she began escorting 4 years ago, when she was 80.

 

[Tisme]

It's Julia, Tisme.


Could you expand on this? I'm not clear what you mean.

.

Yeah I'm very pleased you have remained arbitrary, just reminding you resist the urge to use the "unless you have", "unless you are a women", etc to shutdown someone's viewpoint. Nothing else and certainly not meant to be twisted into some other abstract like another member embarked on.

 

[Julia]

I give up and withdraw. I started the thread to discuss what 'feminism' means these days.
There have, to my great appreciation, been some genuinely thoughtful responses.

But when it becomes an exercise in sophistry, with males purporting to understand what rape is to women, even when little children are the targets, it's entirely pointless.

As the sole female contributor up against the dominant male opinion, I should have known better.

 

[Value Collector]

I give up and withdraw. I started the thread to discuss what 'feminism' means these days.
There have, to my great appreciation, been some genuinely thoughtful responses.

But when it becomes an exercise in sophistry, with males purporting to understand what rape is to women, even when little children are the targets, it's entirely pointless.

As the sole female contributor up against the dominant male opinion, I should have known better.

I never said anything about what rape meant to women, I was commenting on what the motives of men were, and i certainly didnt say anything about children.

You said it was mainly a power over women thing and not a sexual thing, I disagreed saying while power might be a factor in some rapes, it was far from being the sole reason. i cant see the sophistry.

I honestly didnt think it would lead to such a multi post exchange as it did, I really dont know why you can't see that there would be a multitude of reasons it happens and sexual attraction would be a main one.

But look, I can see you manner has changed from your usual self, perhaps this topic is personal to you, I dont want to upset you, so I will leave it there.

 

[Julia]

But look, I can see you manner has changed from your usual self, perhaps this topic is personal to you, I dont want to upset you, so I will leave it there.

OK. Thank you.