Feminism

[Julia]

Glad you had such a lovely wife, Tisme. My comment stands re the crap that was perpetuated by women's magazines back when I was a naive young wife, accepting as my lot that I should of course work full time, and in addition do all the shopping, all the cooking and washing up, all the housework, and be prepared always to be available to entertain my husband's business guests.

I'll never forget one evening, after he'd been lying on the couch watching TV while I ironed shirts, my husband running a finger over a polished window ledge, and saying "you obviously haven't done the dusting today"!

So don't tell me those days were all in my imagination. It wasn't until women like Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan started speaking up that anything began to change. Even in the 70s it was not common for banks to grant mortgages to women without the guarantee of a husband or male relative!!!

Craton: thanks for accepting my comments so pleasantly. As I said, I know you mean well. And yes, some women are absolutely what you describe.
In an ideal world we would simply all just think of ourselves as people, without feeling any need to attribute any particular traits to either men or women.

 

[pixel]

Glad you had such a lovely wife, Tisme. My comment stands re the crap that was perpetuated by women's magazines back when I was a naive young wife, accepting as my lot that I should of course work full time, and in addition do all the shopping, all the cooking and washing up, all the housework, and be prepared always to be available to entertain my husband's business guests.

I'll never forget one evening, after he'd been lying on the couch watching TV while I ironed shirts, my husband running a finger over a polished window ledge, and saying "you obviously haven't done the dusting today"!

So don't tell me those days were all in my imagination. It wasn't until women like Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan started speaking up that anything began to change. Even in the 70s it was not common for banks to grant mortgages to women without the guarantee of a husband or male relative!!!

Craton: thanks for accepting my comments so pleasantly. As I said, I know you mean well. And yes, some women are absolutely what you describe.
In an ideal world we would simply all just think of ourselves as people, without feeling any need to attribute any particular traits to either men or women.

I can understand where you're coming from, Julia;
but what made you stop reading Women's Weekly?

No need to answer that my point is: How much has really changed in the way women are portrayed in "their" magazines? These days, I have to spend increasing hours in doctors' waiting rooms. To pass the time, I amuse myself by flicking through the mags; most of which I refer to as "Women's Daze" and "No Idea".
While there may be some mention of confident and self-reliant role models, the bulk of articles seem to deal with superficial heroine worship, how to make yourself desirable for "your man", and what make-up will cover your - Shock, Horror! - skin blemishes.

I may be wrong and young women no longer read that kind of tripe, but then - how come it's being printed? Someone must be buying that trash and be influenced by it. And that is a worry...

 

[Calliope]

me me she diviorced me and took me to the cleanersRe: Feminism

I was fortunate to have a wife who took great pleasure in dressing well and treating me like I was loved and valuable

Yes you were very fortunate Tisme. On the other hand my first wife was a very attractive woman who was also attractive to other men and who could turn on the charm, and she played her cards accordingly. I was the typical pussy whipped husband and she easily manipulated me by simply withdrawing her "charms" to gain what she wanted. Of course when she realised she could do better than me she shot through.

However it wasn't all bad. During the interval between my next and final marriage, with my newly acquired know-how, I played the field with several similarly attractive women who were happy to cuckold their husbands.

An attractive woman or a charming woman, will have men eating out of her hand. Feminists of course are bitter because they have no charm. James Barrie got it right;

“Charm. It's a sort of bloom on a woman. If you have it, you don't need to have anything else; and if you don't have it, it doesn't much matter what else you have.”
― J.M. Barrie

 

[SirRumpole]

An attractive woman or a charming woman, will have men eating out of her hand. Feminists of course are bitter because they have no charm. James Barrie got it right;

That's the other side of "equality" isn't it ?

How many women have slept(?) their way into promotion above their ability, either by favours or threats of disclosure afterwards ? I don't hear the feminists criticising the use of female charms to get ahead, it seems to come down to making the most of one's assets.

I'll never forget one evening, after he'd been lying on the couch watching TV while I ironed shirts, my husband running a finger over a polished window ledge, and saying "you obviously haven't done the dusting today"!

So don't tell me those days were all in my imagination. It wasn't until women like Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan started speaking up that anything began to change. Even in the 70s it was not common for banks to grant mortgages to women without the guarantee of a husband or male relative!!!

Maybe things haven't changed all that much.

“What the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing is that if they get it done commercially it’s going to go up in price and their own power bills when they switch the iron on are going to go up.”

Tony Abbott- Prime Minister

 

[Tisme]

Glad you had such a lovely wife, Tisme. My comment stands re the crap that was perpetuated by women's magazines back when I was a naive young wife, accepting as my lot that I should of course work full time, and in addition do all the shopping, all the cooking and washing up, all the housework, and be prepared always to be available to entertain my husband's business guests.

I'll never forget one evening, after he'd been lying on the couch watching TV while I ironed shirts, my husband running a finger over a polished window ledge, and saying "you obviously haven't done the dusting today"!

So don't tell me those days were all in my imagination. It wasn't until women like Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan started speaking up that anything began to change. Even in the 70s it was not common for banks to grant mortgages to women without the guarantee of a husband or male relative!!!

.

I don't think I suggested your imagination was in play Julia. I'm merely saying the Bewitched household was not all that common here....most had to work for a living, but......

1) get married and you were turfed from the public service (and banks);
1a) disparate pay on the basis women weren't 100% as productive as men;
2) want a loan or hire purchase and hubby had to approve it (no hubby no loan;
3) widows pension was appalling;
4) divorced women were pariahs;
5) expectation for the woman to cook the meals and do the washing (especially if stay at home);
6) do the shopping;
7) no drinking in the general bars (where most men didn't want to be anyway) and just don't drink;
8) always the passenger on car trips;
9) assume hubby's surname and even Christian name;
10) perhaps given an allowance for household budget (most men in my town gave the pay packet over to the wife as they left the work premises and got a shilling or two for a drink)
11) etc


How boring things were back then and the burden on men to keep their women in check must have been exhausting ......

 

[burglar]

... most had to work for a living, but ...

Yah make a big song and dance about the ironing while the man goes to work.
But not all men got pleasant jobs!

 

[Julia]

my point is: How much has really changed in the way women are portrayed in "their" magazines? These days, I have to spend increasing hours in doctors' waiting rooms. To pass the time, I amuse myself by flicking through the mags; most of which I refer to as "Women's Daze" and "No Idea".
While there may be some mention of confident and self-reliant role models, the bulk of articles seem to deal with superficial heroine worship, how to make yourself desirable for "your man", and what make-up will cover your - Shock, Horror! - skin blemishes.

I may be wrong and young women no longer read that kind of tripe, but then - how come it's being printed? Someone must be buying that trash and be influenced by it. And that is a worry...

Such a good point, pixel. I see those magazines when standing in the check out queue and wonder the same thing. Cannot see why any woman would waste money on reading about who is sleeping with whom, who has lost/gained weight, who is about to dump their boyfriend, and of course the latest "make yourself desirable" advice.

The essential difference between now and the stuff I quoted earlier from the 70s is that then it was all about the need for women to make themselves desirable to men. Now it's perhaps more about making women happy about themselves, though why that should now involve such bizarre procedures as labiaplasty beats me.

Good list, Tisme, of how things were.

So much progress has been made. I do believe that women now, with the right ability (do they need more than men?) can achieve what they determine for themselves. But I guess that reflects my own experience, and also needs to take into account that I've not toed the line for an employer for many years and it could now be more competitive.

Many of you are employed. How are women treated in your work place? Does gender actually influence work relationships or has the point been reached where people are just people, judged on their ability and their personality?

 

[SirRumpole]

Many of you are employed. How are women treated in your work place? Does gender actually influence work relationships or has the point been reached where people are just people, judged on their ability and their personality?

One of my workplaces some years ago employed "positive discrimination" in which jobs were automatically given to women if they were deemed to have the qualities required for the position, regardless of how many males were competing for the job and their qualifications.

I don't think this is a particularly fair way of doing things, and it caused a lot of resentment among males who may have considered themselves better qualified. It was obviously a PC way of addressing perceived discrimination against women at the time.

I don't know if this policy still applies in the particular workplace I was employed in. I doubt if it did much good for the self esteem of the women appointed under this regime to be regarded as only getting the position because of their gender.

 

[Julia]

Agree, Rumpole. Appointments should be made on merit, nothing else.

 

[Tisme]

One of my workplaces some years ago employed "positive discrimination" in which jobs were automatically given to women if they were deemed to have the qualities required for the position, regardless of how many males were competing for the job and their qualifications.

I don't think this is a particularly fair way of doing things, and it caused a lot of resentment among males who may have considered themselves better qualified. It was obviously a PC way of addressing perceived discrimination against women at the time.

I don't know if this policy still applies in the particular workplace I was employed in. I doubt if it did much good for the self esteem of the women appointed under this regime to be regarded as only getting the position because of their gender.

A decade or more back there seemed to be an explosion of females named Di who had the titular "Human Resource Manager" position, but were predisposed to being the bossy bitch who made other female staffers suffer the consequences of their gender.

These were replaced with "facilitators", the women (mainly in govt) with a task no one really knows the worth of, but delivers company policy in workshop groups for no apparent gain, but still manages to look exasperated from all the hard preparation she has done at home preparing overhead transparencies and gantt charts that state the bleeding obvious and no one is interested in anyway.....yawn....unless of course she is hot, the workshop is in an hotel with a hot tub and the Sambuca/Licor43 mix is cheap.

 

[Hodgie]

Many of you are employed. How are women treated in your work place? Does gender actually influence work relationships or has the point been reached where people are just people, judged on their ability and their personality?

I have seen first hand that job applications will be instantly discounted based on age and gender. But not against women, for them.

I have been involved with going through job applications as well as the interview process to get a replacement PA along side my previous manager and he said something to the effect of, I think this position is only suitable for a young girl or an older women.

His reasoning is that he thinks any female who is not at the beginning their working life or coming towards the end of their career would get bored doing office type work (taking phone calls, emails, preparing documents etc).

But he would not have a male in that position because he doesn't think a male can multi task well enough.

It's kind of the opposite type of discrimination.

Also, in general, those type of office positions are completely dominated by females from what I have viewed so I think that his thoughts were quite common amongst others in positions of power. I don't think people often say it as blatantly as he did to me but I think that those general types of thoughts exist.

To put it in perspective, this manager was in his 60s, so perhaps when the older generations move out of the workforce things will change because they are still running things in a lot of organisations.

 

[pixel]

Many of you are employed. How are women treated in your work place? Does gender actually influence work relationships or has the point been reached where people are just people, judged on their ability and their personality?

I'm obviously no longer employed; but while I was, I tried to hire and promote on a "gender-neutral" basis.
BTW, I applied that maxim as early as the '70s, albeit at that time I was still in Europe, where such attitudes were slightly more advanced than in Australia.
However, about 10 years later, in a similar position here in WA, I still applied the same principle - with somewhat mixed results.

Case 1. Looking for a Group Supervisor, I promoted one lady on ability; all her colleagues were quite okay with it, and she ran managed without problems for over a year. As an aside, in one of her references, I found the commendation "Miss xxx is always well groomed and will be an asset in any office environment." Nothing about her scholastic prowess - that was something I had to find out by myself.
After a year or so, she took Maternity Leave and, after two babies and about 3 years, wanted her Supervisor position back. That had of course not remained vacant for all those years, but given to one of her former colleagues, who may not have been quite as well groomed, but she did a splendid job.
Miss xxx got stroppy and refused to resume at the lower level. HR took the easy way out: "Redundancy"

... to be continued

 

[Craton]

Craton: thanks for accepting my comments so pleasantly. As I said, I know you mean well. And yes, some women are absolutely what you describe.

Am happy to have a heated but rational discussion and I do try my best to be as honest, as open and truthful as possible.

In an ideal world we would simply all just think of ourselves as people,

Preciously!

without feeling any need to attribute any particular traits to either men or women.

Totally agree. Fact is opposites attract and burglar's comment

A man will risk love to get sex, while a woman will risk sex to get love!

is so very apt. Hormones/pheromones are very hard to fight but for those of us that can see through the "gloss", we can have very meaningful (and non sexual) relationships with the opposite sex. I know from experience this to be true.

Now of course that raises the spectre of the 'green eyed monster' of jealousy and from what I've seen of the opposite sex, you girls are masters extraordinaire at this very devious of human emotions. Also spoken from experience.

I may seem to be going off tangent but the point is, feminism is all well and good but I'm not sure the execution of it is hitting home as it should. Speaking of which, DV day today. I think this awareness does a great deal for the feminist movement.

Just my take on it but standing up against DV and fighting for the right to breast feed when and where the baby needs it does more to empower females, does more to make men realise that women are not mere objects of desire (or possessions) than all the screaming done by the feminazis mentioned elsewhere. That's got to be a good thing IMHO.

Re: Jobs. Where I come from there was a time when once a woman married, she was not allowed to work. I can also remember the furore when we got our first female commercial radio DJ and that was the mid 70's!

As Hodgie says, there's still a lot of the 'old school' running things but their time wont last and yes, things will change, as they inevitably do.

 

[Julia]

Thanks for additional comments re workplace situations. I can remember one bloke in a market research firm I worked for, mostly females, walking in of a morning and saying "gidday, you bints".

However it wasn't all bad. During the interval between my next and final marriage, with my newly acquired know-how, I played the field with several similarly attractive women who were happy to cuckold their husbands.

So you effectively took your revenge on your ex wife by using compliant women to this end.

I can't help thinking you relate the above with a sense of having the ultimate victory.
If a woman had offered a similar revelation she would be described as a slut for sleeping around in those days.

Seems there is very much still a double standard.

 

[pixel]

... to be continued

Case 2: The second Supervisor took an interest in streamlining procedures, asking for specific program modifications that would make her group's jobs easier, and even attended night school to implement some mods herself. After a while, she was ready to move into a D&M support role, opening the chance for someone else to advance to Supervisor.

Case 3: When I had to build a development team from scratch, the first two members - definitely chosen on qualification and ability - happened to be male. After we had finished the system specs and decided to develop in-house, I could add programmer positions; two of the successful applicants were female, the younger one would not have been out of place in any beauty pageant either. In a very sweet-natured and unpretentious way.
While I would like to claim credit for hiring just the right mix of people who challenged each other to do well as a team, I am realistic enough to admit a lot was due to sheer dumb luck. Nonetheless, I was invited to her wedding and she made a big deal of the fact that I had always treated her as nothing but a team member and maintained a similar climate of mutual respect inside my department.

Sequel: There came the time when the big catch-up projects were finished and redundancies had to be offered. As luck would have it, I knew a couple of my peers around Town, one of whom needed a programmer with just the skills this lady had. I had met him before, both socially and at professional functions, and thought he was quite okay to suggest as a Boss: a middle-aged family man.
She quit after four weeks: At after hours system testing, the barstud tried to hit on her.

PS: Julia, while there are indeed companies with double-standard cultures, I believe it's up to Management to influence cohesion among work colleagues. On one account, I'm disappointed that she didn't gather evidence and take legal action. We need more cases like the David Jones one splashed across the headlines. But too often it's becoming too stressful for the victim, so she asks herself 'why bother?'

 

[Calliope]

So you effectively took your revenge on your ex wife

By what convoluted reasoning did you arrive at that conclusion?

by using compliant women to this end.

No.I allowed them to use me. I was the compliant male.

 

[Tisme]

By what convoluted reasoning did you arrive at that conclusion?



No.I allowed them to use me. I was the compliant male.

I'm with you on this one Calliope. Julie seems to imply women can't think for themselves.

I have found myself wondering if I should find a spot in the country to hide from the women. It's the burden of handsomeness and stamina that males like you and me have to endure through no fault of our own, but birth right.

 

[Julia]

Meanwhile, all the celebratory joking doesn't alter the harsh reality that one woman every week is killed by a partner or former partner.
As one commentator put it yesterday: if one person every week was killed in a shark attack there would be a national outcry.

And then there are the thousands of terrified women who are physically, sexually and emotionally abused, threatened with their children being killed, forced to witness hideous torture on family pets as an example of his power.

The violence is not confined to any socio economic group or level of intelligence. Some doctors' wives are particularly at risk because of their husbands' access to drugs to render them compliant.

This is the basis of my disgust and anger at the feminazis who shriek about misogyny where it doesn't in fact exist and who see sexist insults where none were intended. If they were to turn their outrage instead to the reality of the powerlessness of some women they might have some reasonable claim to be acting on behalf of the sisterhood.

 

[Value Collector]

Meanwhile, all the celebratory joking doesn't alter the harsh reality that one woman every week is killed by a partner or former partner.
As one commentator put it yesterday: if one person every week was killed in a shark attack there would be a national outcry.

.

Perhaps this might be the answer.

 

[SirRumpole]

Violence against women is totally inexcusable of course. I wonder though if the "macho" alpha male behaviour is attractive to the female because she thinks it will be used to protect her and then it ends up being used against her.

Maybe some critical thinking by the ladies of their partners attitudes towards women in the early days of their relationship may give them some warning of what may be to come.

It seems nice guys finish last in some women's eyes as they go for the beefcake rather that the brains.