Fake news and its effect on the community

[basilio]

Bas do you think you might have become obsessed with a certain topic?

The topic that dare not speak its name ? Perhaps a bit too touchy for ASF ?

Possibly embarrassing for the many people who have carried the banner high and trumpeted long and loud as to the virtues of this bold new US direction ?

I appreciate the ice is thin - in many senses. How long can 70 million armed, angry people stay indoors when their Great Leader is repeatedly telling them their rightful election victory was stolen ?

What would be the consequences on the US if this repeated messaging undermines trust in the democratic system itself ?

How long can the mass media and the FBI and CIA tiptoe around the issues of this systemic undermining of trust in the US voting systems ?

These issues have arisen in all history - including the US. The above story from The Washington Times was written by a strongly conservative writer in 2015 when Trump was making his play for President. He used the excellent example of "The Face in the Crowd" movie to highlight how a skilled manipulator can make the crowd dance to his tune.

That movie of course didn't just magically appear. It was informed by Senator Joe Macarthy and the giant commie conspiracy.
Stalin was only 4 years dead and the cult of Stalinism was still strong. WW2 was only 12 years old millions of Germans still fervently believed in the magic of Hitler.

 

[sptrawler]

Bas do you think you might have become obsessed with a certain topic?

We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.

 

[basilio]

We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.

Extremism, obsessions ? It is a very real challenge SP. You may be referring to the many people who have now become inveigled in the QAnon conspiracies. I believe the spread of that series of beliefs is having a damaging effect on many people. It has also been one of the factors behind the resistance to taking effective quarantine actions over COVID and even denying it's existence.

The point about "obsessing" with Trump has made repeatedly. And given Trump decisively lost the US election on Nov 4th one could anticipate a reset of US views/behaviour post Trump. If Trump had acknowledged his loss and moved on that call would be fair.

The trouble however, is that Donald is taking fake news to a new dimension with his repeated calls of the election being stolen, mass election fraud and so on. That call has been echoed across his 70million wide vote base many of whom fervently believe "they were robbed" . I highlighted where this could go above. And right now there are dozens of armed protesters screaming Stop the Steal outside the home of the Michigan Secretary of State. This is not small potatoes.

Jocelyn Benson: Armed protesters flock to Michigan official's home

The state's attorney general called the incident "disturbing behaviour masquerading as protest".

www.bbc.com

 

[moXJO]

The topic that dare not speak its name ? Perhaps a bit too touchy for ASF ?

Possibly embarrassing for the many people who have carried the banner high and trumpeted long and loud as to the virtues of this bold new US direction ?

I appreciate the ice is thin - in many senses. How long can 70 million armed, angry people stay indoors when their Great Leader is repeatedly telling them their rightful election victory was stolen ?

What would be the consequences on the US if this repeated messaging undermines trust in the democratic system itself ?

How long can the mass media and the FBI and CIA tiptoe around the issues of this systemic undermining of trust in the US voting systems ?

These issues have arisen in all history - including the US. The above story from The Washington Times was written by a strongly conservative writer in 2015 when Trump was making his play for President. He used the excellent example of "The Face in the Crowd" movie to highlight how a skilled manipulator can make the crowd dance to his tune.

That movie of course didn't just magically appear. It was informed by Senator Joe Macarthy and the giant commie conspiracy.
Stalin was only 4 years dead and the cult of Stalinism was still strong. WW2 was only 12 years old millions of Germans still fervently believed in the magic of Hitler.

First off many of the high profile conservatives on Twitter have acknowledged the loss. Most have moved on to focus winning Georgia. Even fox and breitbart seemed to have moved on. The only one so far that hasn't seems to be you.

I've seen a lot of allegations but not enough evidence that has any chance of overturning the election.

I still would have preferred Trump for another term. I never backed away from that, despite bleatings from you and others. Mainly due to defense, world, and China directions. If you honestly think I would be embarrassed, because a bunch of clueless morons that hated Trump said so. Think again. It was never about the person.

Democrats calling for mail ins then using an army of lawyers to influence state rules was going to be open to arguments of fraud. Ballot harvesting did happen. Other claims we saw in varying degrees but no where near what is being claimed. I just don't see the evidence to change an election. It was won before the election even took place.

Democrats kept up the Russian bs for a full term. You really want to keep this going another four years?
I have never seen you push a balanced point. Never seen you acknowledge that you posted an article that was wrong. You just endlessly push stuff that reinforce your narrowing world view. And you are still doing it. You keep a lid on it for a few days and then start all over. Which then provokes a response from the other members.
And its stuff we have commented on a hundred times before.

It makes the divide between left and right bigger. If you think you are changing people's opinions, think again.

 

[moXJO]

We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.

Which thread?

 

[satanoperca]

I still would have preferred Trump for another term. I never backed away from that, despite bleatings from you and others. Mainly due to defense, world, and China directions.

You obviously don't have friends or family in the US.

His mishandling of Covid, near 300,000 dead, "for something that will just disappear" his words is enough. Note : expect it to get to 1,000,000 before his wonderful vaccine is found.

He has not done anything to Make America great again, except divisiveness and help bring down Democracy.

While you attack Bas, for a narrow approach, you have not been able to bring one valid piece of evidence that your master keeps repeating, widespread voter fraud. SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE, or you are saying over 30 judicial cases have been thrown out as the judges are wrong and don't understand the law?

The reason we are in this mess is Chump, China will prevail.

 

[dutchie]

Extremism, obsessions ? It is a very real challenge SP. You may be referring to the many people who have now become inveigled in the QAnon conspiracies. I believe the spread of that series of beliefs is having a damaging effect on many people. It has also been one of the factors behind the resistance to taking effective quarantine actions over COVID and even denying it's existence.

The point about "obsessing" with Trump has made repeatedly. And given Trump decisively lost the US election on Nov 4th one could anticipate a reset of US views/behaviour post Trump. If Trump had acknowledged his loss and moved on that call would be fair.

The trouble however, is that Donald is taking fake news to a new dimension with his repeated calls of the election being stolen, mass election fraud and so on. That call has been echoed across his 70million wide vote base many of whom fervently believe "they were robbed" . I highlighted where this could go above. And right now there are dozens of armed protesters screaming Stop the Steal outside the home of the Michigan Secretary of State. This is not small potatoes.

Jocelyn Benson: Armed protesters flock to Michigan official's home

The state's attorney general called the incident "disturbing behaviour masquerading as protest".

www.bbc.com

So Trump makes "Fake news" for 3 weeks is bad but MSM making "Fake news" for over 4 years is OK.
Interesting analysis of situation.

 

[basilio]

First off many of the high profile conservatives on Twitter have acknowledged the loss. Most have moved on to focus winning Georgia. Even fox and breitbart seemed to have moved on. The only one so far that hasn't seems to be you.

I've seen a lot of allegations but not enough evidence that has any chance of overturning the election.

I still would have preferred Trump for another term. I never backed away from that, despite bleatings from you and others. Mainly due to defense, world, and China directions. If you honestly think I would be embarrassed, because a bunch of clueless morons that hated Trump said so. Think again. It was never about the person.

Democrats calling for mail ins then using an army of lawyers to influence state rules was going to be open to arguments of fraud. Ballot harvesting did happen. Other claims we saw in varying degrees but no where near what is being claimed. I just don't see the evidence to change an election. It was won before the election even took place.

Democrats kept up the Russian bs for a full term. You really want to keep this going another four years?
I have never seen you push a balanced point. Never seen you acknowledge that you posted an article that was wrong. You just endlessly push stuff that reinforce your narrowing world view. And you are still doing it. You keep a lid on it for a few days and then start all over. Which then provokes a response from the other members.
And its stuff we have commented on a hundred times before.

It makes the divide between left and right bigger. If you think you are changing people's opinions, think again.

We certainly seem to be seeing different realities MoXjo don't we ?

You have acknowledged that there is just no evidence of the sort of widespread fraud that could change the election results. And yet Trump insists, and repeatedly insists, that there is fraud, that the election was stolen, that the reason he is losing is because the Republicans in charge of vote counting in Georgia and Pennsylvania won't do as he says and refuse to certify the vote.

So I offer a couple of thoughts

1) Does the fact that Donald Trump continue to make completely baseless claims of election fraud and attempts to strong arm election officials to his side change anyone on ASF views on his fitness to be a President? Has he gone too far in this effort to undermine the electoral system ?

2) What is the ongoing impact of this behaviour on the millions of Trump supporters who still believe his every word ? Where does this take the US ?

3) When will the Republicans stand up and also recognise that Trump lost the Presidency and that his efforts to undermine trust in the electoral system are just unacceptable and he has to go ?.

Mo you say I see only the most narrow POV. If you check back you will find I posted and supported the efforts of the conservative Republicians in Pennsylvania and Georgia and elsewhere to ensure firstly an honest ballot, then a proper counting of these ballots and finally their principled approach to defending these critical processes.

Finally. If the situation was reversed. If a Democratic candidate/President lost an election as decisively as Trump has and then proceeded to destroy public confidence in the system on a set of totally unproven fabrications what would be your response ?

 

[moXJO]

You obviously don't have friends or family in the US.

His mishandling of Covid, near 300,000 dead, "for something that will just disappear" his words is enough. Note : expect it to get to 1,000,000 before his wonderful vaccine is found.

He has not done anything to Make America great again, except divisiveness and help bring down Democracy.

While you attack Bas, for a narrow approach, you have not been able to bring one valid piece of evidence that your master keeps repeating, widespread voter fraud. SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE, or you are saying over 30 judicial cases have been thrown out as the judges are wrong and don't understand the law?

The reason we are in this mess is Chump, China will prevail.

I have friends and family in the US. My family was once asked by Cherokee Indians to attend a function. Travelled round the US. Its not for me, but I was impressed by the knowledge of those that specialised in various areas. Learnt a lot. So yes I do. And have talked to them and none of them were worried. Probably as much as they were here. And again what is the % rate of deaths? And why did you think dems celebrated in the millions in crowds after Biden won?
Nobody gave a sht. Oh and Trump has botched the covid response.

Did you literally not read my post saying that "I don't see the evidence of enough fraud to change the election"?

The ballot harvesting happens before and is deemed a legal grey area. The dems had a better mail in strategy and plenty of groups with funding to see it through.

 

[moXJO]

We certainly seem to be seeing different realities MoXjo don't we ?

You have acknowledged that there is just no evidence of the sort of widespread fraud that could change the election results. And yet Trump insists, and repeatedly insists, that there is fraud, that the election was stolen, that the reason he is losing is because the Republicans in charge of vote counting in Georgia and Pennsylvania won't do as he says and refuse to certify the vote.

So I offer a couple of thoughts

1) Does the fact that Donald Trump continue to make completely baseless claims of election fraud and attempts to strong arm election officials to his side change anyone on ASF views on his fitness to be a President? Has he gone too far in this effort to undermine the electoral system ?

2) What is the ongoing impact of this behaviour on the millions of Trump supporters who still believe his every word ? Where does this take the US ?

3) When will the Republicans stand up and also recognise that Trump lost the Presidency and that his efforts to undermine trust in the electoral system are just unacceptable and he has to go ?.

Mo you say I see only the most narrow POV. If you check back you will find I posted and supported the efforts of the conservative Republicians in Pennsylvania and Georgia and elsewhere to ensure firstly an honest ballot, then a proper counting of these ballots and finally their principled approach to defending these critical processes.

Finally. If the situation was reversed. If a Democratic candidate/President lost an election as decisively as Trump has and then proceeded to destroy public confidence in the system on a set of totally unproven fabrications what would be your response ?

We have Georgia in play so keep the base engaged. Outrage is often the best motivator.

I think this is the first time we have ever had mail ins on this scale. So no wonder he is pissed. Trump wins if the election was held normally.

I'm expecting he will keep this up and attempt another run. But by then I think the base will have moved on to something else. I don't see him in a future win.

Democrats have in fact called into question the last four years of trumps presidency. Remember all those thousands of posts you have made. You won't see the right leaners doing the same on here. And I have in the past corrected fake news previously on here either side. Now its getting next to impossible to break the fake news apart.

 

[Joe Blow]

I have never seen you push a balanced point. Never seen you acknowledge that you posted an article that was wrong. You just endlessly push stuff that reinforce your narrowing world view. And you are still doing it. You keep a lid on it for a few days and then start all over. Which then provokes a response from the other members.
And its stuff we have commented on a hundred times before.

This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.

The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.

For this reason, I'm proposing a ban on linking to partisan websites in political threads. Too many on the far left and far right just link to absurdly partisan articles on other (mostly dubious) websites with no context, no explanation, and no commentary.

This has become profoundly annoying, not to mention destructive. If you have an opinion, or a view on a political topic, then mount your argument, in your own words. Don't just link to someone else's biased opinion. Tell others what you think.

For the avoidance of doubt, a "partisan website" is one that pushes only a far left or far right wing political agenda. There is no balance, or attempt at objectivity, just shameless political agenda pushing.

If you agree with this proposed ban, please either like this post or share your views in this thread. If you disagree, then post and explain why.

 

[satanoperca]

We have Georgia in play so keep the base engaged. Outrage is often the best motivator.

I think this is the first time we have ever had mail ins on this scale. So no wonder he is pissed. Trump wins if the election was held normally.

Maybe mailins were so high due to a virus killing nearly 3000 people a day. That is overwhelming their hospitals, but it will just go away.

It was not a normal election, a thing called COVID changed it, how hard is that to understand.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Basically the posters (poster children) that drop their outrage don't seem to talk about stocks much, in my observation. As this is ASF which is short for Aussie Stock Forum, not Argumentative Simplistic Fanaticism, I tend to give it a miss. In fact, I only got to his thread because I had a look at Latest Activity. Gee, its boring.

 

[sptrawler]

Which thread?

'Freedom of speech and protest'. The extremists are IMO dictating what is acceptable and what isn't, which actually is exactly what is happening on all stages and public forums, unless one agrees with what the extremists decree is acceptable they are attacked.
It must be extremely difficult for comedians to write material these days.

 

[sptrawler]

This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.

The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.

For this reason, I'm proposing a ban on linking to partisan websites in political threads. Too many on the far left and far right just link to absurdly partisan articles on other (mostly dubious) websites with no context, no explanation, and no commentary.

This has become profoundly annoying, not to mention destructive. If you have an opinion, or a view on a political topic, then mount your argument, in your own words. Don't just link to someone else's biased opinion. Tell others what you think.

For the avoidance of doubt, a "partisan website" is one that pushes only a far left or far right wing political agenda. There is no balance, or attempt at objectivity, just shameless political agenda pushing.

If you agree with this proposed ban, please either like this post or share your views in this thread. If you disagree, then post and explain why.

What you are saying is absolutely true Joe, the problem with the media and politics is, they all have a leaning or a political agenda.
Therefore the links, as you say just become a cut and paste, of that media's political leaning.
If people can't discuss the underlying politics of the parties, the whole thread just becomes a ridiculous slanging match, with absolutely no thought given to the veracity of the issues and thoughtful debate.
It doesn't just happen in politics, it happens in several threads, but it usually relates to how the politicians are reacting to what the moral police see as acceptable.

 

[dutchie]

Gee, its boring.

From the outside looking in. LOL

 

[basilio]

This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.

The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.

For this reason, I'm proposing a ban on linking to partisan websites in political threads. Too many on the far left and far right just link to absurdly partisan articles on other (mostly dubious) websites with no context, no explanation, and no commentary.

This has become profoundly annoying, not to mention destructive. If you have an opinion, or a view on a political topic, then mount your argument, in your own words. Don't just link to someone else's biased opinion. Tell others what you think.

For the avoidance of doubt, a "partisan website" is one that pushes only a far left or far right wing political agenda. There is no balance, or attempt at objectivity, just shameless political agenda pushing.

If you agree with this proposed ban, please either like this post or share your views in this thread. If you disagree, then post and explain why.

I'll offer my thoughts Joe.

1) I was trying to move this discussion to a very particular case of Fake News - Donald Trumps efforts to undermine public confidence in the US electoral system by falsely claiming widespread fraud. In that context a few facts emerge.

• It seems almost all the mainstream media including Fox agree that there is no evidence of substantial fraud. The overwhelming cries of fraud come from the President, his legal team and hundreds of websites devoted to supporting anything the President says.
• Demonstrating the lack of truth/evidence of the claims requires reference to the processes of vote counting, the explanations that show why the claims are wrong and in the end the final reports of the election officials who conducted the vote. Just having an opinion about them without citing relevant evidence is meaningless.
• In the above context referencing appropriate media reports is essential. This is reportage.

2) In the bigger picture I am posing a basic question about "Fake News"

Is is acceptable for the President and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?

The question is quite separate from whatever the President did in office. IMV it goes to the issue of the accountability of public officials for their behaviour in respecting their office and the US Constitution. I make that point because these two factors are at the core of the response from officials in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan and Pennsylvania who have attested to the accuracy of the election results despite repeated public pressure from the President to

It is also the basis of Chris Krebbs responses as leader of the Government body overseeing the election. He was forthright in detailing the mistakes in the various fraud allegations and the consequences he sees as a result. (Chris was duly sacked by the President for these actions.)

Fired director of U.S. cyber agency Chris Krebs explains why President Trump's claims of election interference are false

Chris Krebs, a lifelong Republican, was put in charge of the agency handling election security by President Trump two years ago. When Krebs said the election was the country's most secure ever, Mr. Trump fired him. Now, Krebs speaks to Scott Pelley.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[sptrawler]

I'll offer my thoughts Joe.

1) I was trying to move this discussion to a very particular case of Fake News - Donald Trumps efforts to undermine public confidence in the US electoral system by falsely claiming widespread fraud. In that context a few facts emerge.

• It seems almost all the mainstream media including Fox agree that there is no evidence of substantial fraud. The overwhelming cries of fraud come from the President, his legal team and hundreds of websites devoted to supporting anything the President says.
• Demonstrating the lack of truth/evidence of the claims requires reference to the processes of vote counting, the explanations that show why the claims are wrong and in the end the final reports of the election officials who conducted the vote. Just having an opinion about them without citing relevant evidence is meaningless.
• In the above context referencing appropriate media reports is essential. This is reportage.

2) In the bigger picture I am posing a basic question about "Fake News"

Is is acceptable for the President and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?

The question is quite separate from whatever the President did in office. IMV it goes to the issue of the accountability of public officials for their behaviour in respecting their office and the US Constitution. I make that point because these two factors are at the core of the response from officials in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan and Pennsylvania who have attested to the accuracy of the election results despite repeated public pressure from the President to

It is also the basis of Chris Krebbs responses as leader of the Government body overseeing the election. He was forthright in detailing the mistakes in the various fraud allegations and the consequences he sees as a result. (Chris was duly sacked by the President for these actions.)

Fired director of U.S. cyber agency Chris Krebs explains why President Trump's claims of election interference are false

Chris Krebs, a lifelong Republican, was put in charge of the agency handling election security by President Trump two years ago. When Krebs said the election was the country's most secure ever, Mr. Trump fired him. Now, Krebs speaks to Scott Pelley.

www.cbsnews.com

It doesn't undermine the voting system, it undermines Trumps credibility.
The voting system has a process and that process moves on, despite people running around in ever decreasing circles.
What is there, to give yourself an ulcer about?

Time is running out for Trump as the 'safe harbor' deadline looms

A federal deadline for finalising US election disputes rolls around this week, and could close the door on any hope President Donald Trump has of overturning rival Joe Biden's victory.

www.abc.net.au

 

[basilio]

It doesn't undermine the voting system, it undermines Trumps credibility.

Time is running out for Trump as the 'safe harbor' deadline looms

A federal deadline for finalising US election disputes rolls around this week, and could close the door on any hope President Donald Trump has of overturning rival Joe Biden's victory.

www.abc.net.au

SP I agree with your saying it doesn't undermine the voting system itself.

It does however undermine peoples confidence in the system. Essentially millions of people are now believing that the "elections are rigged," "Trump was robbed" . And the consequences are that in the future millions of citizens will think elections are dodgy - no matter how transparent and well regulated they are.

 

[sptrawler]

SP I agree with your saying it doesn't undermine the voting system itself.

It does however undermine peoples confidence in the system. Essentially millions of people are now believing that the "elections are rigged," "Trump was robbed" . And the consequences are that in the future millions of citizens will think elections are dodgy - no matter how transparent and well regulated they are.

If those people don't believe in the process, then they are stupid and no matter what the issue is they will believe whatever they are told.
There is always a percentage of the population that can't think for themselves and believe everything they are told, you will never change that, all that will change is the issue that those people carry on about.
Usually it is whatever the media can get the most mileage, from the least amount of footwork, Trump makes it easy with his silly tweeting.