Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

GM never actually wanted to produce the EV1 (that’s the EV they ended up killing).

it was what the industry calls a “compliance car”, The state of California brought in a law saying 1% of cars sold or leased had to be zero emissions, so in order to sell 99 petrol cars the had to produce 1 EV.

they ended up lobbying hard and killed the law, and then killed the EV.

 

[Smurf1976]

they ended up lobbying hard and killed the law, and then killed the EV.

And with that way of thinking entrenched in the company, in due course they ended up killing GM as well.

OK, it's not quite dead but GM is a shadow of what was back in the days when it was pretty much the very definition and ultimate symbol of US big business. These days anyone looking for a company to fit that definition would be looking at the tech area and whilst they'd probably not pick Tesla, it wouldn't be far down the list. It's a lot more relevant than GM these days just as a business, without saying anything about their products.

 

[Investoradam]

And with that way of thinking entrenched in the company, in due course they ended up killing GM as well.

OK, it's not quite dead but GM is a shadow of what was back in the days when it was pretty much the very definition and ultimate symbol of US big business. These days anyone looking for a company to fit that definition would be looking at the tech area and whilst they'd probably not pick Tesla, it wouldn't be far down the list. It's a lot more relevant than GM these days just as a business, without saying anything about their products.

you think the lobby groups are a bunch of individuals?
or maybe they started importing parts and cars from SE Asia and worked out they could push the boundaries and milk the combustion engine longer?

 

[JohnDe]

Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car​

Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car

A Model 3 could already be considerably cheaper to own than an average Australian car. Is it true, and how?

thedriven.io

 

[Smurf1976]

you think the lobby groups are a bunch of individuals?

Who said anything about lobby groups?

My point is really quite simple.

Not that long ago, well within living memory, General Motors was one of the absolute symbols not only of cars but of the US as a country. The two were joined at the hip - "What's good for General Motors is good for America" as they used to say. It was right up there as a key symbol of American business and for that matter the country itself.

GM has nowhere even remotely close to that status these days. Ask someone about giants of American business and symbolically important companies and they'll point to the tech stocks or maybe Boeing, McDonald's or even Disney but it sure won't be GM.

GM's scrapping of functioning EV's in order to cling onto existing technology is a Kodak moment just like that company's failure to embrace the digital imaging technologies it invented and now they're scrambling to avoid the same fate.

The writing's been on the wall for a very long time with all this. Given that the push to move cars away from petrol goes back almost half a century, someone was always going to do it at some point with or without anyone lobbying.

 

[qldfrog]

Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car​

Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car

A Model 3 could already be considerably cheaper to own than an average Australian car. Is it true, and how?

thedriven.io

A long rant after following the previous exchanges
$
Tell me when i can spent less than 30 k and i can get an ev matching the pleasure driving of my wife mx5 convertible,or when i can get a ute to drive in my paddocks, cross our creeks drag a 2.5t delivery machine from a dip,pull a trailer load of gravel that the tradie hilux could not pull up the steep driveway in my place.
Current value of that ute on redbook below $10k, 200k km on clock so can easily do another 10y .8l diesel or colza oil per 100km..i am sure where the money get its best value.
As an engineer and quite tech progress minded, i like EVs. For the concept. Charge on home solar, takeoff speed ,ease of maintenance,easy integration for autonomous driving and sever us from oil consumption and related wars
But at this stage,if using lithium batteries, they are city and highway cars so more comparable to the mini cars at 20k, cost far far too much to be a decent alternative to the masses and ate not green in any way if recharged on the grid.
It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds who can not hold its joy of putting the commoners back in public transports,living in housing commissions with a shared garden and fresh coat of paint to become social sustainable housing, while they cruise the now empty city highways in their EVs.
Part and integral component of the Reset.but ultimately even Stalin henchmen ended hanging or shot...

You can like the technology but never forget the narrative,why and the impacts..look at what social media became..
EVs stlll need subsidies and now mandatory shutting of ICE to be produced after decades of recent developments
that says it all.
Tesla is soon going to be able to make 1million car a year.
While 73 millions were built this year .....
So more suppressing and mandatory "choices" ahead. We will indeed see more EVs as we as peons of the west will have no choice.
like Covid jabs..your choice as long as you do not want to work. live.?
In Europe, it works with ICE bans in areas, obviously taxes and now laws.
I know that history has always found that government mandated choices mostly end up badly.
Be happy in your self driving EVUber freeing you to watch funny YouTube cat videos or hate posting against these bastards still owning lands and houses,or wearing clothes,eating meat or fleeing tracking

In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.
I like computer technology,worked on AI tracking. Face recognition, gait tracking,etc..amazing powerful technology well past what most people even imagine possible.. but the use of it, the what and why..ohh the nightmare
I retired..EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end.

 

[divs4ever]

wait until they finally work out they need us old retirees out and about , traveling and consuming to keep to economy afloat ( and they could have solved the pollution problem by giving us all mobility scooters )

but of course they won't because they believe their own narrative

 

[rederob]

But at this stage,if using lithium batteries, they are city and highway cars so more comparable to the mini cars at 20k, cost far far too much to be a decent alternative to the masses and ate not green in any way if recharged on the grid.

Most cars - ICE or NEV - are city and highway cars so that's not a relevant point. However, the linked article is accurate and the proof of the pudding is in Norway used EV prices today:

It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds who can not hold its joy of putting the commoners back in public transports,living in housing commissions with a shared garden and fresh coat of paint to become social sustainable housing, while they cruise the now empty city highways in their EVs.
Part and integral component of the Reset.but ultimately even Stalin henchmen ended hanging or shot...

It's actually the vehicle of choice for Chinese buyers who have literally hundreds of vehicle options ranging in price from US$5k upwards, as evidenced by Wuling sales which exceed Tesla's. So you could not be more wrong!

You can like the technology but never forget the narrative,why and the impacts..look at what social media became..
EVs stlll need subsidies and now mandatory shutting of ICE to be produced after decades of recent developments
that says it all.

No they don't! Only western government taxes are pricing comparable EVs out of traditional ICE markets. XPeng's P5 is cheaper and more technologically advanced than comparable Teslas.

Tesla is soon going to be able to make 1million car a year.
While 73 millions were built this year .....

China alone expects around 3 million NEVs to be built this year, and more than double that again next year. Tesla alone by 2023 should be knocking out around 2 million units and has a planned growth trajectory of 50% a year!

In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.
I like computer technology,worked on AI tracking. Face recognition, gait tracking,etc..amazing powerful technology well past what most people even imagine possible.. but the use of it, the what and why..ohh the nightmare

EVs will incorporate all relevant and available technology. Some EVs already have face recognition and use this as the "key" to start the car. Newer Chinese EVs are using lidar and have more sensors than Teslas to improve the driving experience and safe operation of the car. And as Tesla has proven, their EVs are already significantly safer than equivalent ICE vehicles
- a trend that will transfer across the entire vehicle industry over time.
Nations that quickly embrace EVs will have a big advantage in productivity as the metadata being collected leads to reduced trip times and servicing downtime, while also ensuring transport vehicles operate optimally to all driving conditions.
I think your understanding of the NEV market is so hindsighted it clouds your judgement.

 

[JohnDe]

Tell me when i can spent less than 30 k and i can get an ev matching the pleasure driving of my wife mx5 convertible

It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds

In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.

I retired..EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end.

Find me a 2021 Mazda MX-5 convertible for $30,000, I'll buy two.

There's that term 'woke' again. Reminds me of growing up in the early 70's & 80's, being called names because my father was Italian, even though I was born in Australia and my mother was of Australian of English heritage. Poor form qfrog. FYB, I own a VF SS-V Ute, which I will never sell, I have been involved in the automotive industry since I was a teenager, I've never owned a Mercedes.

Yes, you are missing the point on EV's, it is not just about the "pure technical value", it is also about the joy of driving, of not dropping into the petrol station, the feeling of driving a vehicle that uses regenerative braking to re-charge and not having to waste energy through a braking system. Until you drive one you are just hypothesising.

"EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end." If that' the case, why bring your wife's car to the debate?

Do yourself a favour, go drive a Tesla M3 for an hour or so.

 

[qldfrog]

As long as you believe in your narrative you will be happy
mx5 new 36k so not hard to find a decent one below 30k..
and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.
The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel

 

[rederob]

and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.

Yes, and they will have cost an arm and a leg to operate over that period compared to a BEV, while the BEV's battery alone would be worth as much as the 10 year old ICE vehicle.

The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel

Just another uninformed comment. It's a bit like saying tradies should buy their tools from ALDI because they are more affordable. However, as was shown in the earlier link, Tesla's barely lose their resale value and after 3 years are a much smarter purchase than an equivalent ICE.

 

[JohnDe]

As long as you believe in your narrative you will be happy
mx5 new 36k so not hard to find a decent one below 30k..
and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.
The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel

Post a link of a new 2021 MX-5 convertible, with pricing. It was you that mentioned the car for under $30,000.

 

[divs4ever]

actually the tools were bought at Bunnings/Aldi because the workers lose them regularly ( quality doesn't count if it is still sitting around the yard in the last job ) ( now if you are a one-man-band and careful with your stuff , the dynamics change markedly )

ALSO ICE has been a cash cow for governments , taxes fees , registrations , tolls ( remember the government had to build all that infrastructure so it could effectively administer the state/nation )

who pays for what in an EV subsidized world ( i bet it isn't the government's own pocket )

 

[rederob]

actually the tools were bought at Bunnings/Aldi because the workers lose them regularly ( quality doesn't count if it is still sitting around the yard in the last job ) ( now if you are a one-man-band and careful with your stuff , the dynamics change markedly )

I am still using my mechanical clutch 2-speed Black and Decker electric drill (made in England in the 70s) so buying quality products counts in the long run.

ALSO ICE has been a cash cow for governments , taxes fees , registrations , tolls ( remember the government had to build all that infrastructure so it could effectively administer the state/nation )

Nothing prevents governments from treating NEVs in the same way. However, the health and safety benefits of NEVs will be in the tens of billions annually. That's aside from productivity benefits.

who pays for what in an EV subsidized world ( i bet it isn't the government's own pocket )

Why do EVs need to be subsidised?

 

[qldfrog]

Post a link of a new 2021 MX-5 convertible, with pricing. It was you that mentioned the car for under $30,000.

That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end

 

[divs4ever]

you can see extra penalties on ICE coming miles away AND the government will have the upgrade the electricity grid ( probably by bullying power companies )

( smokers end up subsidizing the health-care industry as an example , but how are governments going to calculate car registration fees , QLD so far bases it on engine cylinders , so assuming an EV will be charged at the 4 ( or less ) rate compared to the luxury car rate 8 plus that is effectively a subsidy ( not counting speedy approvals to extra charging stations , needed to make EVs viable for general use )

electric vehicles have been made for over 100 years , i am not saying history has proved them inferior , but history has preferred improving ICE over that last century

so somebody including super-rich oil barons ( and monarchs ) obviously had incentive to improve ICE usage

do you really think a guilt-trip will work on dedicated petrol-heads ( i think not ) although some might still keep them carefully stored in sheds as collectibles

 

[Value Collector]

do you really think a guilt-trip will work on dedicated petrol-heads ( i think not ) although some might still keep them carefully stored in sheds as collectibles

Figuring out that their V8 can’t beat a soccer mums electric minivan in a drag might start convincing them.

 

[divs4ever]

LOL

i could beat them in the 1970's on a bicycle ( standing start and across an intersection , big or small ) ( and overtake them on selected stretches sometime road camber counts )
but there was no outbreak in racing bike purchases in the next 10 years

a true petrolhead loves their beast for various reasons ( i have known several of them ) , but sure some just love rapid acceleration and they MIGHT swing to EVs as road rules become more draconian

( my first driving experience was a home-made go-kart and they are just awesome when maneuverability counts and no slouch on the zero to 100 mile an hour metric )

but the V8 was more about picking up girls than real performance (otherwise European super cars would be the dominant male toy )

 

[rederob]

you can see extra penalties on ICE coming miles away AND the government will have the upgrade the electricity grid (probably by bullying power companies)

That's a guess, although upgrading the grid is an essential part of shifting to deversified energy.

( smokers end up subsidizing the health-care industry as an example

Actually smokers remain a net cost.

, but how are governments going to calculate car registration fees , QLD so far bases it on engine cylinders ,

Nope, done....

electric vehicles have been made for over 100 years , i am not saying history has proved them inferior , but history has preferred improving ICE over that last century

Except for weight, BEVs are now equal to or superior in performance - see the Plaid versus Chiron and then compare costs of each!

 

[Smurf1976]

you can see extra penalties on ICE coming miles away

Political suicide until such time as the only people still using them are rich collectors rather than unemployed or low income with 20 year old cars.

A tax on the poor is what it would amount to if anyone did it in the 2030’s - I think both sides have got the message the voters don’t accept that sort of thing.