Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

While I will personally be buying an ev and most likely multiple evs. I can see they are a bit of an elitist wankfest at the moment.

Poor routinely buy cars for $600 - $1000. Unless we see huge battery changes that won't

That’s what my dad used to say in the 80’s about those new flashy cars that burned unleaded, and had air conditioning, electric windows and FM radios,… but now that’s what everyone drives, Dad used even tell me that these unleaded cars wouldn’t last because their fuel didn’t lubricate the engine as well as the leases fuels, that turned out to be false, and who would really want to go back to leaded fuels now? Not me, petrol will be looked at the same way in 15 years.

Ev’s will filter down into the low priced catergory of the used car market too and people on lower incomes will be able to buy them, even if the have to spend an extra $1000 they will quickly save that in fuel costs and maintenance, low income earners will be better off with second hand ev than a second hand petrol car.

 

[sptrawler]

The price of midsize ICE vehicles is being raised by the manufacturer's, this will make the decision on whether to go EV, or ICE a more thoughtful decision as the price difference reduces.
I can't see why a city suburban dweller would buy an ICE engine, unless it was a power and distance requirement eg a brickie or tradie who needs the towing and weight carrying capacity.
I think this is the stumbling block in Australia, the big sellers here are the dual cab dual purpose machine, I think the EV manufacturer's have to get it right, before they go to market.
4x4 utes, do a lot of heavy work and ice powered ones are very well catered to, with aftermarket suspension, long range tanks etc.
Going bush with the family in an EV, ATM would be a bit of a jump into the unknown, the way that EV,s are focusing on city based commuter style vehicle's is the best way to go at this point IMO.

 

[Value Collector]

The price of midsize ICE vehicles is being raised by the manufacturer's, this will make the decision on whether to go EV, or ICE a more thoughtful decision as the price difference reduces.
I can't see why a city suburban dweller would buy an ICE engine, unless it was a power and distance requirement eg a brickie or tradie who needs the towing and weight carrying capacity.
I think this is the stumbling block in Australia, the big sellers here are the dual cab dual purpose machine, I think the EV manufacturer's have to get it right, before they go to market.
4x4 utes, do a lot of heavy work and ice powered ones are very well catered to, with aftermarket suspension, long range tanks etc.
Going bush with the family in an EV, ATM would be a bit of a jump into the unknown, the way that EV,s are focusing on city based commuter style vehicle's is the best way to go at this point IMO.

All the different versions will come along in time.

 

[JohnDe]

might be in 'the sin bin' on this topic but have no idea

cheers

I've been informed that he has me on his 'ignore list'. So I can't see any of his posts, or answer any of his comments that he is directing towards me.

all because I picked him up about misinforming people about the pricing of an 2021 MX-5 convertible (under $30,000 he reckons) that he mentioned when reasoning the affordability of an EV.

 

[Value Collector]

I've been informed that he has me on his 'ignore list'. So I can't see any of his posts, or answer any of his comments that he is directing towards me.

all because I picked him up about misinforming people about the pricing of an 2021 MX-5 convertible (under $30,000 he reckons) that he mentioned when reasoning the affordability of an EV.

Welcome to the club, if you disagree with Frog on EVs for to long you get put on ignore.

 

[JohnDe]

Find me a 2021 Mazda MX-5 convertible for $30,000, I'll buy two.


Yes, you are missing the point on EV's, it is not just about the "pure technical value", it is also about the joy of driving, of not dropping into the petrol station, the feeling of driving a vehicle that uses regenerative braking to re-charge and not having to waste energy through a braking system. Until you drive one you are just hypothesising.

"EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end." If that' the case, why bring your wife's car to the debate?

qldfrog, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.

However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.

A freind has forwarded me your present comments, but I will make no further response unless you allow me to see your comments.

qldfrog -
"That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?"

qldfrog -
"I am here, but see no point raising facts so just out.
I could discuss/argue with a kid/younger person, but someone in his 50es raising the wog and green card and all the usual ABC style **** with me against twisted arguments i did not even write.no point;
Life is too short
Still follow the technical advances/prices post etc;
I am not a believer in lithium batteries due to metal scarity, not trusting h2 directly as too leaky but who knows..h2 fuel cells,
or better ammonia (fuel cells or ICE) with green hydrogen..perfect..current batteries are a transition, technically not suited to mass production on the world stage and definitively not sorting the environment issues.
Great for some gold chain wearing Ferrari riders converting to weed smoking baggy yogis driving tesla , the woke crews and as well convertion of old models for the fun...
Thinking myself about converting an old quad or farm buggy when I have time.
.ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end"

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/?q=(And.(C.Make.Mazda._.Model.MX-5.)_.BodyStyle.Convertible._.Year.range(2020..2021).)

 

[Jeda]

qldfrog, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.

However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.

A freind has forwarded me your present comments, but I will make no further response unless you allow me to see your comments.

qldfrog -
"That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?"

qldfrog -
"I am here, but see no point raising facts so just out.
I could discuss/argue with a kid/younger person, but someone in his 50es raising the wog and green card and all the usual ABC style **** with me against twisted arguments i did not even write.no point;
Life is too short
Still follow the technical advances/prices post etc;
I am not a believer in lithium batteries due to metal scarity, not trusting h2 directly as too leaky but who knows..h2 fuel cells,
or better ammonia (fuel cells or ICE) with green hydrogen..perfect..current batteries are a transition, technically not suited to mass production on the world stage and definitively not sorting the environment issues.
Great for some gold chain wearing Ferrari riders converting to weed smoking baggy yogis driving tesla , the woke crews and as well convertion of old models for the fun...
Thinking myself about converting an old quad or farm buggy when I have time.
.ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end"

View attachment 133844

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/?q=(And.(C.Make.Mazda._.Model.MX-5.)_.BodyStyle.Convertible._.Year.range(2020..2021).)

Very nice looking model and I like the idea of the classic rear drive set up. Shame that my 55 year old knees find it a chore getting in and out of such low sports cars. If I had the money I'd buy one just to keep, maybe drive on a nice day once every few months, through the mountains and back home again. Once in and once out, that'll do hahaha

 

[Jeda]

After hearing reports that new car sales are down "Official new-car sales figures for November 2021, down 15.3 per cent compared to the same month last year (which was still in the grip of the COVID pandemic) and the weakest November result in 13 years, since 2008."

I found this article very interesting -

Norway is again showing that the all-electric car future is closer than people think, as November car sales in the country see internal combustion engine car sales crumble.

As many markets are introducing plans to “ban” gas-powered cars by 2030, 2035, and even later, Norway is aiming for each new car on the road to be all-electric by 2025, and it’s on pace to achieve that early.

The results this year have been nothing short of stunning, with the November numbers released today being no exception.

Norway is reporting 73.8% of sales last month coming from all-electric vehicles, and the number goes up to 94.9% when adding all vehicles with batteries

Tesla is leading sales with both the best-selling and second best-selling vehicles in the market last month:

1. Tesla Model Y: 1,013 units
2. Tesla Model 3: 771 units
3. Volkswagen ID.4: 725 units
4. Audi Q4 e-tron: 661 units
5. Nissan Leaf: 655 units

Tesla is often a difference maker in the market because its volume comes by boat late in the quarter. Therefore, the month of December is expected to show even more EV sales in Norway with a larger Model 3 and Model Y shipment.

While other markets are more tentative in making the same market correction and are instead rolling out EV incentives that are clunkier but easier to accept politically, electric vehicles are closing the gap in terms of the value proposition.

When it does fully close that gap in virtually all segments, which I see happening in the next four years, the exact same thing that’s happening in Norway right now will be happening in most other markets.

The automakers who believe that will not happen until 2030 or even 2035 are going to have to readjust in record time or go bankrupt.

Norway again shows the all-electric car future is closer than people think

Norway is again showing that the all-electric car future is closer than people think, as November car sales in the...

electrek.co

 

[Smurf1976]

That’s what my dad used to say in the 80’s about those new flashy cars that burned unleaded, and had air conditioning, electric windows and FM radios,… but now that’s what everyone drives, Dad used even tell me that these unleaded cars wouldn’t last because their fuel didn’t lubricate the engine as well as the leases fuels, that turned out to be false,

This subject has always seemed to prompt conservatism.

There was a fuss about unleaded petrol yes. It was as though the people arguing didn't realise that 91 unleaded when it went on sale was not much different from Super anyway, it just didn't have the tetraethyllead added and was dyed purple instead of red. Had they known that they'd probably have said a lot less about it.

Those who complained then often switched to buying 95 and later 98 when they became available. Thing is, they actually do have some of the issues they were complaining about....

Ethanol's another one. Done properly it won't wreck your engine indeed it'll do a pretty good job of cleaning it. Emphasis there on "if done properly" which means don't use it in anything with incompatible materials and/or that won't run a correct air/fuel ratio with it.

Now I see similar arguments, referring to society as a whole not specifically on this forum, regarding EV's. Some are factually based, pointing out that not everyone can charge at home and that not everyone has a city as either their origin or destination such that public chargers need to be widespread, others are just clinging to petrol basically.

 

[Value Collector]

qldfrog, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.

However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.

A freind has forwarded me your present comments, but I will make no further response unless you allow me to see your comments.

qldfrog -
"That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?"

qldfrog -
"I am here, but see no point raising facts so just out.
I could discuss/argue with a kid/younger person, but someone in his 50es raising the wog and green card and all the usual ABC style **** with me against twisted arguments i did not even write.no point;
Life is too short
Still follow the technical advances/prices post etc;
I am not a believer in lithium batteries due to metal scarity, not trusting h2 directly as too leaky but who knows..h2 fuel cells,
or better ammonia (fuel cells or ICE) with green hydrogen..perfect..current batteries are a transition, technically not suited to mass production on the world stage and definitively not sorting the environment issues.
Great for some gold chain wearing Ferrari riders converting to weed smoking baggy yogis driving tesla , the woke crews and as well convertion of old models for the fun...
Thinking myself about converting an old quad or farm buggy when I have time.
.ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end"

View attachment 133844

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/?q=(And.(C.Make.Mazda._.Model.MX-5.)_.BodyStyle.Convertible._.Year.range(2020..2021).)

It’s probably best for you to click ignore on him too, that way he is blocked from seeing your posts, other wise he can click “show ignored posts” and see your post and then comment on them without you seeing his reply.

 

[JohnDe]

It’s probably best for you to click ignore on him too, that way he is blocked from seeing your posts, other wise he can click “show ignored posts” and see your post and then comment on them without you seeing his reply.

Good idea ??

 

[divs4ever]

Welcome to the club, if you disagree with Frog on EVs for to long you get put on ignore.

OH ! i have resisted using 'ignore ' on any forum it is available on , sometimes even my harshest critics have a priceless idea

but it is there to be used , by those who wish to use it

 

[sptrawler]

I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.

 

[divs4ever]

This subject has always seemed to prompt conservatism.

There was a fuss about unleaded petrol yes. It was as though the people arguing didn't realise that 91 unleaded when it went on sale was not much different from Super anyway, it just didn't have the tetraethyllead added and was dyed purple instead of red. Had they known that they'd probably have said a lot less about it.

Those who complained then often switched to buying 95 and later 98 when they became available. Thing is, they actually do have some of the issues they were complaining about....

Ethanol's another one. Done properly it won't wreck your engine indeed it'll do a pretty good job of cleaning it. Emphasis there on "if done properly" which means don't use it in anything with incompatible materials and/or that won't run a correct air/fuel ratio with it.

Now I see similar arguments, referring to society as a whole not specifically on this forum, regarding EV's. Some are factually based, pointing out that not everyone can charge at home and that not everyone has a city as either their origin or destination such that public chargers need to be widespread, others are just clinging to petrol basically.

my main concern on ethanol is it is using resources better used as human and animal food ( although saying that in the past i have consumed more than my share of various spirits )

however there was ( may still be ) technology for making ethanol ( and bio-diesel ) from algae so my concern might be able to be bypassed ( ethanol + a biomass for fertilizer for land crops/stock-food )

 

[sptrawler]

my main concern on ethanol is it is using resources better used as human and animal food ( although saying that in the past i have consumed more than my share of various spirits )

however there was ( may still be ) technology for making ethanol ( and bio-diesel ) from algae so my concern might be able to be bypassed ( ethanol + a biomass for fertilizer for land crops/stock-food )

It isn,t a black and white scenario though, not all biomass and crops are turned into food, a lot is ruined by weather events etc.
Also it isn't as though you would be running the generators 24/7 365 days a year, I imagine areas that are poorly serviced by grid supplies could use them. Of course they wouldn't be suitable everywhere, same as gas hydro etc isn't suitable everywhere, but there will be areas that have regular excess biomass, that goes to waste.
Then areas in outback Queensland that have a solar /wind farm supplying the grid, could have a skid mount gas turbine or maybe a few large diesels as standby power, these would be supplied fuel from a fuel storage tank, if in that area bio diesel is a viable supply it would make sense to use it.
If however there was alternatives they should be looked at, nothing should be cast aside without investigation, if that is done it just makes the transition harder and less likely to succede IMO.

 

[divs4ever]

I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.

sorry the Oz government showed how it can mess up a tax system and compound the problem by increments

a hi-speed rail ( electric would be nice ) centred in Canberra branches to Sydney , Melbourne and Adelaide ( with other connections later Adelaide to Perth and Darwin , Sydney north to Brisbane and Townsville/Cairns ) take the pressure off the airports , and major highways and hopefully add safety to the mix

but of course we are currently in the business of offending China so we will probably take a cost hit by consulting the Japanese skill-set

surely long distance rail then rent a vehicle as needed would make sense to some

 

[divs4ever]

It isn,t a black and white scenario though, not all biomass and crops are turned into food, a lot is ruined by weather events etc.
Also it isn't as though you would be running the generators 24/7 365 days a year, I imagine areas that are poorly serviced by grid supplies could use them. Of course they wouldn't be suitable everywhere, same as gas hydro etc isn't suitable everywhere, but there will be areas that have regular excess biomass, that goes to waste.
Then areas in outback Queensland that have a solar /wind farm supplying the grid, could have a skid mount gas turbine or maybe a few large diesels as standby power, these would be supplied fuel from a fuel storage tank, if in that area bio diesel is a viable supply it would make sense to use it.
If however there was alternatives they should be looked at, nothing should be cast aside without investigation, if that is done it just makes the transition harder and less likely to succede IMO.

i am in favour of using the best tech available for that job , and this is where i feel business should be incentivized not penalized to pick the best solution ( low cost , low pollution, low waste , etc etc ) a well run business can define their needs and find the best solution efficiently

wading through 30 plus pages of legislation ( probably already obsolete ) doesn't help the end result

 

[Smurf1976]

my main concern on ethanol is it is using resources better used as human and animal food

Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.

My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.

There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).

 

[divs4ever]

oh yes i was well aware a carefully tuned engine can run on ethanol ( some US car racing already proves that )

now i maybe wrong but i thought the earliest ICEs ran on bio-diesel or ethanol before the oil industry swayed the fuel preference ( especially with the diesel engine )

 

[JohnDe]

I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.

we all need a target to aim for, Norway is the current leader. We don’t have to copy them, and we shouldn’t, but we can take the best examples that fit our country.

Just read an interesting article, change is happening fast, faster than most can accept or understood, including me.


ELECTRIC VEHICLES SPECIAL REPORT

“I am charging into this brave new EV world and you should too​

If you’d told me 20 years ago that I would be driving a car that could run on pure sunlight alone I would have laughed in your maniacal direction and asked you whether this vehicle would also fly and have some kind of magical screen on board that could give me access to All the Music in the World at the swipe of my finger, or via my voice command.”

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au