Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
Jump to new
sptrawler said:
99% recovery rate, I would like to see the actual evidence of that, if it's true that is amazing IMO
Click to expand...

Tesla is aiming for a completely closed loop system.

But, 99% or 89% or even 50% doesn't matter, my point holds true, calculating EV foot print based on all the materials going to land fill is just misleading.
 
SirRumpole said:
Here is a scholarly dissertation on recycling Li batteries if you care to wade through it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=2ahUKEwix17fVsJvnAhU9xzgGHaecBK0QFjAMegQIAxAB&url=https://www.csiro.au/~/media/EF/Files/Lithium-battery-recycling-in-Australia.PDF&usg=AOvVaw2EMLZJqjdR_TtmYQWJkc_o
Click to expand...

By the time the batteries start hitting the scrap cycle on mass in 15 or 20 years or so from now, there will be plenty of recycling schemes ready for them.
 
Value Collector said:
But, 99% or 89% or even 50% doesn't matter, my point holds true, calculating EV foot print based on all the materials going to land fill is just misleading.
Click to expand...
I don't have any figures but at present if you dispose of a car in a city then fair chance the metal gets recycled.

Dispose of the same car in a regional area and you'll find that the local council has a specific price for dumping cars at the tip, it's a set rate for a car body and is not based on weight, and that's exactly where they go.

Bottom line is that a substantial number of cars at present get recycled and a substantial number get buried so the answer is "somewhere in the middle". :2twocents
 
Currently I think I read, in Australia 2% of batteries get recycled and that is overseas, I didnt want to say anything because I thought it would sound negative.
Then I thought what the hell, everyone else is negative about climate change, it might make me feel part of the action.:roflmao:
 
Smurf1976 said:
I don't have any figures but at present if you dispose of a car in a city then fair chance the metal gets recycled.

Dispose of the same car in a regional area and you'll find that the local council has a specific price for dumping cars at the tip, it's a set rate for a car body and is not based on weight, and that's exactly where they go.

Bottom line is that a substantial number of cars at present get recycled and a substantial number get buried so the answer is "somewhere in the middle". :2twocents
Click to expand...

for the average Internal combustion engine car yes.

But, as people constantly point out, the EV's contain a large battery with $1000's worth of valuable metals, So there will be a big incentive to get the car back to a recycling facility where the battery (and the rest of the car) gets recycled.

In fact as you point out some regular cars do not enter the recycling system because transporting them is not cost effective, However adding a $10,000 battery to the car is a large incentive to get that car back to a recycling centre.

So EV's might end up being recycled at higher rates due to their contents,... lets chalk this up as another environmental benefit of the EV, hahaha
 
sptrawler said:
Currently I think I read, in Australia 2% of batteries get recycled and that is overseas, I didnt want to say anything because I thought it would sound negative.
Then I thought what the hell, everyone else is negative about climate change, it might make me feel part of the action.:roflmao:
Click to expand...

probably true with AA batteries etc.

But if you have $10,000 batteries getting around, they will be recycled for sure.

there is already a market for Tesla batteries pulled from car wreaks etc, people break down they packs and repurpose the individual cells, "reuse is the best form of recycling" after all.
 
Value Collector said:
probably true with AA batteries etc.

But if you have $10,000 batteries getting around, they will be recycled for sure.

there is already a market for Tesla batteries pulled from car wreaks etc, people break down they packs and repurpose the individual cells, "reuse is the best form of recycling" after all.
Click to expand...


No issues about the recycling arguments. There are however 2 issues:

[1] The issue rather is: to replace all ICE cars currently (a sunk investment) with EVs, will require a massive drain on natural resources (as far as batteries go) to manufacture these batteries. Googles current guestimate is 1.4 billion passenger cars currently. EV cars 3.4 million.

So is the idea to phase out ICE cars over time or legislate them out of existence overnight? The latter is probably not economically feasible. The former rather defeats the purpose (CO2 emissions) as it could take a significant period of time.

[2] Further, they require cobalt, a mineral that is found in the Earth’s crust. But 50% to 70% (depending on the source) of cobalt reserves are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), a politically unstable country that doesn’t shy from inhuman labor practices and child labor. Tesla and Panasonic have been reducing the amount of cobalt used in their batteries; it has declined by 60% – the Model 3 battery contains only 2.8% cobalt (the Volkswagen ID.3’s battery contains 12% to 14% cobalt). Tesla and Panasonic recently announced that they are working on a cobalt-free battery; they’ll substitute silicon for cobalt.

Assuming that works, possibly not an issue. Until then, still an issue.

jog on
duc
 
qldfrog said:
And for people living in Australia who actually care for the planet now, well available in may,
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/c257776c82f494e2b44be19f14f5bb91
Yaris hybrid
Will be interesting to see the pricing
Click to expand...

Two things;
A Yaris hybrid will be boring... Toyota prides itself on being boring
People in Australia who care about the planet now? May i suggest that those people are either dumping fossil fuel stock or have never bought in the first place(shorting possibly). The BIS sees this as a serious risk.
The consequences for the Aussie dollar? I'm spreading my risk.
https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/tes...tralia-electric-car-sales-reach-5000-in-2019/

Some companies appear to have an upside.
 
orr said:
Two things;
A Yaris hybrid will be boring... Toyota prides itself on being boring
People in Australia who care about the planet now? May i suggest that those people are either dumping fossil fuel stock or have never bought in the first place(shorting possibly). The BIS sees this as a serious risk.
The consequences for the Aussie dollar? I'm spreading my risk.
https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/tes...tralia-electric-car-sales-reach-5000-in-2019/

Some companies appear to have an upside.
Click to expand...

Boring?...
https://www.motor1.com/news/382517/toyota-yaris-gr-4-engine/
 
ducati916 said:
No issues about the recycling arguments. There are however 2 issues:



[2] they require cobalt, a mineral that is found in the Earth’s crust. But 50% to 70% (depending on the source) of cobalt reserves are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), a politically unstable country that doesn’t shy from inhuman labor practices and child labor. Tesla and Panasonic have been reducing the amount of cobalt used in their batteries; it has declined by 60% – the Model 3 battery contains only 2.8% cobalt (the Volkswagen ID.3’s battery contains 12% to 14% cobalt). Tesla and Panasonic recently announced that they are working on a cobalt-free battery; they’ll substitute silicon for cobalt.
Click to expand...

Pg 10 of Maxwells 01/19 presention( 6months prior to TSLA purchace) Zero Cobalt 300wh/kg demonstrated pathway to 500..
http://s21.q4cdn.com/566123494/files/doc_presentations/2019/Maxwell-Needham-Conference-Deck.pdf

on Recycling ... JB Struabal + Stevenson + Redwood ....DYOR
 
orr said:
Tell you what will be interesting; The date TSLA has a Capital value more than Toyota. One day intrim 12-18months??? (circa $900US) sustained not long after... so we'll see.
Click to expand...
I see performance vehicles
Don't give a rat's what powers them
 
ducati916 said:
So is the idea to phase out ICE cars over time or legislate them out of existence overnight? The latter is probably not economically feasible. The former rather defeats the purpose (CO2 emissions) as it could take a significant period of time.
Click to expand...
Statistically the average age of a car in Australia is very close to 10 years so the average lifespan would be roughly double that.

Have a look around the streets. It's now unusual to see any car from the 1980's or earlier, you could be waiting quite a while for even one to go past, and for that matter anything prior to mid-1990's is fairly uncommon now.

Go forward to 2050 and it'll be the same story. Someone will note that there's very few cars on the road that were built prior to 2020 and that anything prior to 2025 is fairly uncommon.

My thinking is thus very firmly in the camp of gradual replacement. Just stop building ICE's and in due course the fleet becomes completely electric. After 20 years petrol is no longer a big thing, any car lasting longer than that is likely to be doing lower than average mileage, and after 30 years it's effectively gone apart from collectors of old cars etc who'll be buying the stuff in drums by that stage.

A rushed replacement would do more harm than good through the waste of materials etc plus the reality that it would be impractical to build the EV's quickly enough anyway. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Statistically the average age of a car in Australia is very close to 10 years so the average lifespan would be roughly double that.

Have a look around the streets. It's now unusual to see any car from the 1980's or earlier, you could be waiting quite a while for even one to go past, and for that matter anything prior to mid-1990's is fairly uncommon now.

Go forward to 2050 and it'll be the same story. Someone will note that there's very few cars on the road that were built prior to 2020 and that anything prior to 2025 is fairly uncommon.

My thinking is thus very firmly in the camp of gradual replacement. Just stop building ICE's and in due course the fleet becomes completely electric. After 20 years petrol is no longer a big thing, any car lasting longer than that is likely to be doing lower than average mileage, and after 30 years it's effectively gone apart from collectors of old cars etc who'll be buying the stuff in drums by that stage.

A rushed replacement would do more harm than good through the waste of materials etc plus the reality that it would be impractical to build the EV's quickly enough anyway. :2twocents
Click to expand...


I would tend to agree...it will take time to replace ICE with EV.

Assuming (for the moment) that that is the case: If CO2 emissions are a problem or contributory factor to (an assumed) global warming problem...isn't it all too late?

If the above is true and EVs can make a difference (statistically significant) to the global warming problem (assuming for the moment that there is a problem): then the reality is that the ICE needs to go now. Overnight (so to speak). Which, as I'm gathering, is not possible for any number of reasons.

jog on
duc
 
ducati916 said:
I would tend to agree...it will take time to replace ICE with EV.

Assuming (for the moment) that that is the case: If CO2 emissions are a problem or contributory factor to (an assumed) global warming problem...isn't it all too late?

If the above is true and EVs can make a difference (statistically significant) to the global warming problem (assuming for the moment that there is a problem): then the reality is that the ICE needs to go now. Overnight (so to speak). Which, as I'm gathering, is not possible for any number of reasons.

jog on
duc
Click to expand...
Duc,
You got it right:
With all the assumption you noted: co2 causing global warming etc
Yes far too late and considering the increase on motor vehicle numbers are in market where they can not afford more expensive cars: India, Indonesia China and Africa
This is all a very theorical subject
But enjoy it: you as a western consumer can purchase now highly subsidised state of the art technology with lower running cost if you can add solar panels.
And there is no doubt they are beautiful machines
In the name of the environment with feel good and show off status added for free
 
ducati916 said:
then the reality is that the ICE needs to go now. Overnight (so to speak). Which, as I'm gathering, is not possible for any number of reasons.
Click to expand...
Contemplate the logistics, materials, workforce and financial implications of producing ~20 years worth of cars in a very much shorter time.

No chance of it happening in practice.
 
Top