Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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Value Collector said:
Most long haul happens between the cities on major freeways with single drivers.
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Long haul Peth to Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane mostly 2-up drivers.
Been there done that. Non stop except for comfort stop. 5 mins. Eat on the go. Sleep 5 hours, and drive 5 hours
 
farmerge said:
Long haul Peth to Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane mostly 2-up drivers.
Been there done that. Non stop except for comfort stop. 5 mins. Eat on the go. Sleep 5 hours, and drive 5 hours
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Again, most of the freight in Australia isn’t crossing the Nullarbor from Perth, it’s travelling up and down the east coast, between the main population centres not using two up drivers.

Also, having just driven across the USA, I can tell you every truck stop there has dozens of trucks parked up with the owners using the showers, restaurant or sleeping.

the below is a pretty common site, it the worlds biggest truck market, all those vehicles on the left are parked and could be slow charging while the owners attend the needs of the human body. the ones parked at the bowsers could be doing a quick 30 min charge before heading out for another 8 hours driving.

IMG_1868.jpeg
 
Was thinking about truck drivers allowable time found this

Work and rest requirements | NHVR

In addition to the general duty to not drive a fatigue-regulated heavy vehicle on a road while fatigued, drivers must comply with certain maximum work and minimum rest limits.
www.nhvr.gov.au www.nhvr.gov.au
 
IFocus said:
Was thinking about truck drivers allowable time found this

Work and rest requirements | NHVR

In addition to the general duty to not drive a fatigue-regulated heavy vehicle on a road while fatigued, drivers must comply with certain maximum work and minimum rest limits.
www.nhvr.gov.au www.nhvr.gov.au
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Yep, so for a solo driver 30 mins of charge time every 8 hours should not be a deal breaker, it’s less than the mandated break times.

(now que the comments of road trains on the Nullabor 😅)
 
Value Collector said:
If they are capable of shipping diesel that was produced on the other side of the world out to these locations, and use electrically powered bowsers to pump it into the trucks, there shouldn’t really be a problem with providing electric charging, locally produced solar and wind could be provided, backed up by batteries, and even a diesel generator if needed.

but as I said, the low hanging fruit first.
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well not that far from where i am is a rare oddity in Australia .. an operating oil refinery,that buys the oil from Bridgeport Energy ( a subsidiary of NHC ) , you don't even need to import the oil

now if EV was so good the State/Federal Government would convert ALL the rail to electric but here in Queensland they have much difficulty just keeping the rail network up to current demand , let alone state-wide electrification ,

if most of the long range transport was done by ( electric ) train maybe EV trucks would be more appealing ( they would be mostly short/medium haul )
 
Value Collector said:
Yep, so for a solo driver 30 mins of charge time every 8 hours should not be a deal breaker, it’s less than the mandated break times.

(now que the comments of road trains on the Nullabor 😅)
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actually i was thinking of ridiculing the major freight /rail line across that same area that would take a big load off the highway ( and heavy vehicles and less time waiting for an available charger )
 
divs4ever said:
actually i was thinking of ridiculing the major freight /rail line across that same area that would take a big load off the highway ( and heavy vehicles and less time waiting for an available charger )
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Rail is definitely the most sensible way to move things across those distances. In the USA they load truck trailers directly on to trains, and have truck pick them up at the other end.

this is one of Berkshire Hathaways trains transporting truck trailers.

 
divs4ever said:
well not that far from where i am is a rare oddity in Australia .. an operating oil refinery,that buys the oil from Bridgeport Energy ( a subsidiary of NHC ) , you don't even need to import the oil

now if EV was so good the State/Federal Government would convert ALL the rail to electric but here in Queensland they have much difficulty just keeping the rail network up to current demand , let alone state-wide electrification ,

if most of the long range transport was done by ( electric ) train maybe EV trucks would be more appealing ( they would be mostly short/medium haul )
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It’s is happening slowly, freight trains will be moving to battery electric over time.
 
JohnDe said:
26 years not long enough? The first Prius was released in 1997.

One problem with hybrid vehicles is they have twice as many components as an ICEV. Or an EV.

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we have actually had electric vehicles ( battery powered ones ) for much longer than 26 years but battery tech didn't advance much in the last one hundred years

manufacturers love complexity and extra tiny moving parts , they love 'features' more that efficiency ( seems to justify price increases )
 
divs4ever said:
manufacturers love complexity and extra tiny moving parts , they love 'features' more that efficiency ( seems to justify price increases )
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No, they don't.

Complexity is inefficient, expensive to design and manufacture, expensive to maintain and cover under warranty.

The reason that ICEV have become so complex is not due to the manufactures wanting it, it is because of the ever-increasing emissions and safety rules that have been introduced for the health of consumers.

The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system was introduced in the 1970's the increase in NOx emissions. This caused engines to lose power and become less efficient, complexity was forced on manufacturers.

Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) is another complex system introduced by governments to minimise the poisonous emissions for the safety of consumers.

The above are only two of the many complexities forced on manufacturers for the benefit of consumers.

A hybrid vehicle requires a combustion engine with 'complex' emission devices, and all the componentry required for an electric motor and battery.

An EV does away with the complex combustion engine and makes do with a modern efficient and relatively simple electric motor.

Though I do agree that manufacturers are poor at improving and reducing complex parts. Take a look at the assembly of the body, watch Sandy Munro explain some of it -

 
a bit of info about Lithium batteries.

While all lithium batteries are generally lumped together in one category, it is important to note here that not all lithium batteries are created equal.​
​
Lithium battery cells are graded into A, B and C categories after manufacture. A-grade Lithium cells meet the manufacturer’s specifications within a tight tolerance whereas B and C grade cells are outside the specifications.​
​
There is no doubt that lithium is here to stay. Advancements in this space will see more and more applications being powered by Lithium batteries in the coming years.​


What’s the Big Deal about Lithium?​


There has been a lot of buzz about lithium-ion batteries in recent years. The demand for lithium batteries have grown exponentially due their widespread use in mobile phones, portable computers, power tools, e-bikes and life-saving medical equipment. Touted as the next big thing, lithium plays an important role in the world’s transition to cleaner energy solutions. Lithium batteries have been an enabler in electric vehicle development by increasing vehicle range and energy storage without adding excessive weight. They are a key component in renewable energy storage systems by storing any excess generated energy, and then delivering it when the renewable power source is not operating.

lithium_may-social-graphics_rectangle_wip1.jpg

Despite the positives, lithium batteries also have their fair share of controversies. There are negative questions around the mining of lithium from an environmental standpoint. The mining of cobalt is also controversial because of ethical and human cost concerns.

There has been an increase in the number of lithium battery related fires sparking safety concerns. Lithium battery fires can occur if the battery is overcharged, damaged or disposed of incorrectly. They burn aggressively and can be very difficult to extinguish.

While all lithium batteries are generally lumped together in one category, it is important to note here that not all lithium batteries are created equal. The lithium ion category of batteries is very broad however there are a couple of battery types which are somewhat different to the rest.

What is a Lithium Battery?​

A lithium ion battery is a rechargeable battery which uses the transfer of ions internally to store and deliver energy. Lithium is the most popular rechargeable battery chemistry used today.

Lithium battery cells are graded into A, B and C categories after manufacture. A-grade Lithium cells meet the manufacturer’s specifications within a tight tolerance whereas B and C grade cells are outside the specifications. A-grade lithium cells are exclusively used in ALLiON and Predator Lithium batteries. They come with a higher initial cost however are well worth the money in the long run.

Here are some interesting facts about lithium:
  • Australia is the largest producer of lithium in the world
  • Lithium is the lightest metal and solid element in the periodic table
  • Lithium is a soft metal which is a light silver colour
  • Lithium is soft enough to be cut with a knife and melts at 180°C
  • Lithium is highly reactive and flammable in pure form and must be stored in oil
  • Lithium does not occur by itself in nature, it is always in a compound
  • Lithium is used as a lubricant (white lithium grease), as an additive to the production of iron, steel and aluminium, and in batteries.

Types of Lithium-Ion Batteries​

There are many different types of lithium-ion batteries in use however they do not all have the same characteristics. The majority of lithium-ion batteries contain either nickel, manganese or cobalt (or a combination of these) as part of their chemical reaction. While these elements contribute to the efficiency of the cell, these cells are also susceptible to thermal runaway which will often result in a battery fire.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) and Lithium Titanate (LTO) batteries do not use these rare earth metals in their composition. While they do not have the same high energy density as many other lithium ion batteries, their safety, cycle life and overall performance make them a better option.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP)​

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries have superior thermal and chemical stability making them one of the safest lithium battery chemistries on the market because they are not susceptible overheating and thermal runaway. LFP cells also have a higher tolerance to extreme temperatures and hazardous events.

LFP batteries are also known for their long lifespan and cost effectiveness. Depending on the Depth of Discharge, they have a lifespan of between 3000 and 6000 cycles before needing replacement.

Advantages
  • Safe
  • Long cycle life
  • High energy density, compared to lead acid batteries
  • Wide temperature range
  • Lightweight
  • Thermal stability
  • Fast charging
  • Environmentally friendly & non toxic
Disadvantages
  • High initial cost
  • Lower energy density, compared to some other lithium-ion batteries
LFP batteries are commonly used in 4x4 and camping, UPS systems and solar energy storage systems. Our ALLiON and Predator Lithium batteries are powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate technology.

Lithium Titanate (LTO)​

The standout feature of Lithium Titanate batteries is are their exceptionally long cycle life. LTO batteries have a rated cycle life of more than 20,000 cycles which is unmatched by any other battery. LTO batteries are not as light as other lithium based batteries however they can be fast charged which makes them suitable for applications where weight is not a critical factor like energy storage systems or electric buses.
The manufacturing process of LTO batteries is expensive due to material costit and the complexity of the manufacturing process. LTO batteries are produced in limited quantities which affects the economies of scale.

Advantages
  • Ultra high cycle life
  • Safe
  • Wide temperature range
  • Fast charging
  • Thermal stability
Disadvantages
  • High Cost
  • Lower energy density
  • Lower cell voltage
LTO batteries are suitable for applications that require longevity and durability such as solar energy storage systems. Our Zenaji batteries are powered by Lithium Titanate technology.

The Last Word​

There is no doubt that lithium is here to stay. Advancements in this space will see more and more applications being powered by Lithium batteries in the coming years. However due to some limitations of lithium they will never truly replace lead acid batteries. Lead acid batteries are cheaper, materials are easier to source and they are 97% recyclable; so they will always continue to play a pivotal role in providing power within our society.
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divs4ever said:

Chinese Battery Makers Back Out Of Germany Amidst Cooling EV Demand​


Chinese Battery Makers Back Out Of Germany Amidst Cooling EV Demand | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com www.zerohedge.com
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Maybe they have found it too hard to compete in Germany. Tesla is the biggest EV manufacturer in Germany, and producing batteries. They are expanding production, including batteries, but getting a hard time from Unions and environmentalists, as seen in recent news articles.

Hundreds of climate protesters have clashed with police in Germany after attempting to storm the Tesla factory near Berlin. ​
Several people were injured, including three police officers, during Friday's demonstration against the proposed expansion of the electric car giant's only European plant.​

Electricians and dockworkers across Sweden on Friday joined a widening effort by unions in the country to pressure Tesla to sign a collective bargaining agreement with its mechanics.

The labor action expanded three weeks after the autoworkers’ union, IF Metall, called a strike against Tesla in an effort to secure a collective arrangement over pay

 
moXJO said:
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/f9337c5dc80ab4520ee253f692f137c5

big hit piece.

I've always questioned how quickly the uptake would roll out. I called a decade back in 2019 to see a dominance. There has been a major shift in sentiment towards ev dominance though.
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EVs will have their place but it will not be 'everywhere ' any time soon

they tried the 'fad/hype ' strategy and some consumers are smart enough to work out what is good for them in an economy facing uncertainty

let's see how often EV makers shoot themselves in the leg ( like many auto-makers before them )
 
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