Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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sptrawler said:
You sound like an ICE driver, talking about how many EV's sold 20 years ago. ;)


When was the first electric car sold in Australia?


2008

Australia's first electric car: The Blade Electron

The Blade Electron was an Australian electric car produced in Victoria between 2008 and 2014. Based on a Hyundai Getz, powered by a 55kW electric motor, with an approximate range of 120 kilometres.


www.carsales.com.au

VFACTS 2023: More than 87,000 EVs sold last year - carsales.com.au

Aussies bought more than one million new petrol and diesel cars in 2023, but EVs are growing fast
www.carsales.com.au www.carsales.com.au
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20, 30 years ago I was not an EV fan. Went to industry shows and technical conferences and saw that we were not even close to have EVs on the road in commercial quantities. Tesla changed all that.

Hydrogen is another that I have watched for a long time, even had a retired engineer develop his own Hydrogen powered car in the back of our business, converted an old Torana. the biggest problem with hydrogen is the cost of the fueling system, tanks and safety.

Another blow for hydrogen power as energy giant closes refuelling stations

One of the world’s largest energy companies is shutting down its refuelling stations in the US, blaming "market factors".

Hydrogen-powered passenger cars in the US have been dealt another blow, with energy giant Shell closing all of its Californian refuelling stations as hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) fail to fire.

As reported by Forbes, Shell’s hydrogen division announced last week it would immediately close all seven of its refuelling stations in California, citing “supply complications and other external market factors”.

The company’s decision now means there are fewer than 50 hydrogen stations for passenger cars in California – and fewer than 100 US-wide – a number which is expected to drop given the extremely low percentage of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles (FCEVs) sold compared to electric vehicles (EVs).


shell-hydrogen-station-1-1.jpg
shell-hydrogen-station-2-1.jpg

In 2023, just 2968 new FCEVs were sold in the US, all of which were in California. The sales race was dominated by the Toyota Mirai (2737 sales), with the Hyundai Nexo contributing just 241 examples to the total.

By contrast, more than 1.2 million EVs were sold in the US last year, with more battery-powered models being sold every day than FCEVs.

Shell’s announcement represents a major walk back from the British energy giant, which was the first company to open a hydrogen refuelling station in the US, doing so in Washington D.C. back in 2005.


2021-hyundai-nexo-world-distance-record-HERO.jpgHyundai Nexo
feature_ft-ext_pc2024-toyota-mirai-japan-spec.jpgToyota Mirai

The company also last year announced plans to open an extra 48 hydrogen refuelling stations in California – a move which would have almost doubled the state’s total – having been awarded US$40.6 million (A$62.2 million) in government funding, though this has now been cancelled.

Registrations of new FCEVs in Australia have also been on the decline, with just six new examples registered last year – four Toyota Mirais and two Hyundai Nexos.

Both vehicles are not sold to the public and are only available on lease deals to organisations approved by the manufacturers, and have access to the fewer than 10 refuelling stations located across New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and the Australian Capital Territory.

The six FCEVs sold in Australia last year represented a 60 per cent decrease on 2022, and a stark contrast to the 161 per cent rise in EV sales, with 87,217 new battery-powered vehicles registered in 2023.
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The Blade Electric car was simple and for its time effective. I think 10-15 years later with upgraded batteries, the concept of swapping a stock standard ICE car with EV running gear could still make sense. I think GE (2008- 2015) Honda Jazz cars would be a smart looking possibility

www.drive.com.au

Australia’s first-ever electric passenger car is a forgotten pioneer

The first commercially available electric car in Australia wasn't a Tesla. Or a Mitsubishi. It was, however, Australian-made... mostly.
www.drive.com.au www.drive.com.au
 
I have decided to take a break from this thread, life is too short to read endless crap about how an EV is saving money vs an equivalent ICE, and not to mention the supposedly better fossil fuel efficiency on the whole time life.
Still interested in the tech side, but news feed will do that.
There are obvious arguments: engineering fun, absence of inner city exhausts, and even stop start ( busses, garbage trucks, etc) where EV are a no brainers.
But until someone can point to a spreadsheet detailing how a 20k km a year car user in qld is better off $ wise using an EV vs equivalent ICE (orange for orange) I am out ..
And no, a tesla is not equivalent to a luxury car😂
Similarly, when on a life cycle Inc building disposal, per km, an EV in Australia consumes less fossil fuel than a diesel ICE, msg me and I will join again.
in the meantime, trying to focus on life
 
JohnDe said:
20, 30 years ago I was not an EV fan. Went to industry shows and technical conferences and saw that we were not even close to have EVs on the road in commercial quantities. Tesla changed all that.

Hydrogen is another that I have watched for a long time, even had a retired engineer develop his own Hydrogen powered car in the back of our business, converted an old Torana. the biggest problem with hydrogen is the cost of the fueling system, tanks and safety.
Click to expand...
Indeed, as people with basic sciences know, hydrogen is leaky as hell so the need to either stock it only temporarily or with nitrogen as ammonia ..which can directly be used for ICE..heavy trucks or ships for example
 
qldfrog said:
Indeed, as people with basic sciences know, hydrogen is leaky as hell so the need to either stock it only temporarily or with nitrogen as ammonia ..which can directly be used for ICE..heavy trucks or ships for example
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What happened to metal hydride hydrogen storage?
 
qldfrog said:
I have decided to take a break from this thread, life is too short to read endless crap about how an EV is saving money vs an equivalent ICE, and not to mention the supposedly better fossil fuel efficiency on the whole time life.
Still interested in the tech side, but news feed will do that.
There are obvious arguments: engineering fun, absence of inner city exhausts, and even stop start ( busses, garbage trucks, etc) where EV are a no brainers.
But until someone can point to a spreadsheet detailing how a 20k km a year car user in qld is better off $ wise using an EV vs equivalent ICE (orange for orange) I am out ..
And no, a tesla is not equivalent to a luxury car😂
Similarly, when on a life cycle Inc building disposal, per km, an EV in Australia consumes less fossil fuel than a diesel ICE, msg me and I will join again.
in the meantime, trying to focus on life
Click to expand...
I have literally posted a scientific article that explains batteries don’t consume more fissile fuels that Batteries, but you don’t seem to want to accept it. but think about the Math of what you are saying,

it costs Tesla $6,000 to manufacture the Model 3 batteries, now even if that $6000 cost was just 100% diesel eg no wages or other equipment charges, a diesel car burns way more than $6,000 of diesel.

secondly...Tesla not a luxury??? I don’t know but for me a car that drives itself on my long trips is a pretty big luxury but I guess we al value different things.

I travel a bit, so end up renting cars a few times a year, and every time I drive a cheap petrol, I can tell you I miss the Tesla, getting back into the smooth, quite drive of a Tesla, with all its features which none of the cheaper cars seem to ever and not having to go to petrol stations also seems like a luxury to me, but again I guess people value different things
 
I'm still not sold on evs. Multiple reasons.
Some of those reasons is the large scale adoption that needs to happen. I just can't see it happening at the moment due to issues with infrastructure and practicality.

I was arguing with someone on here back in I think 2017 - 2019 about how I thought it would take a decade to see large scale adoption. They argued it would be 2 years and evs were ready to go. I still don't see many of the concerns I had then being addressed now.

Even when we do hit numbers I can see a whole other set of problems opening up.
 
When Australia's largest vehicle roadside assistance group decides to join up with tech commentators and produce a national podcast, you should take notice.

NRMA Insurance joins forces with tech experts to launch electric vehicle podcast

IAG-backed NRMA Insurance (NRMA) has teamed up with tech commentators Stephen Fenech and Trevor Long to unveil a new podcast aimed at educating Australians about electric vehicles (EVs).

The podcast, named “Two Blokes Talking Electric Cars,” is hosted by Fenech and Long. It covers a wide array of EV-related topics, including dispelling myths, sharing ownership experiences, discussing latest trends, and delving into the realities of EV ownership and driving.

“This podcast will bust myths on EV driving and bring to life the real benefits and difficulties faced by Australians who want to make that change,” said Michelle Klein, chief customer and marketing officer at NRMA.
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NRMA Insurance partners with new podcast to drive electric vehicle education

Podcast_No_copy%20-%20cropped.jpg


NRMA Insurance has today announced its partnership with Stephen Fenech and Trevor Long to launch a new electric vehicle podcast - “Two Blokes talking Electric Cars”.

As Australia’s largest motor vehicle insurer, NRMA Insurance is excited to be part of this electric vehicle (EV) podcast series with Trevor and Stephen which will cover everything from myth-busting, EV ownership experiences, latest trends and what it is like to drive and own an EV.

NRMA Insurance, backed by IAG, also has a long -standing commitment to drive down emissions for a safer, net zero future and recognises that electric and other low emission vehicles have the potential to significantly reduce transport emissions.

As we enter this new EV era, NRMA Insurance wants to play a key role in helping its customers transition to EVs. In 2023, 7.2% of new vehicles sold in Australia were Electric vehicleshttps://iagau.sharepoint.com/sites/...nnovative Electric Vehicle Podcast.docx#_edn1 and this is expected to grow to around 30% of the market by 2027[ii].

"This podcast will bust myths on EV driving and bring to life the real benefits and difficulties faced by Australians who want to make that change," Ms Klein continued.

The “Two Blokes Talking Electric Cars” podcast is the creation of trusted tech commentators Stephen Fenech and Trevor Long. EV owners themselves, Stephen and Trevor bring their combined expertise and enthusiasm to the table, offering insightful discussions, in-depth reviews, and candid commentary on all things EV.

The weekly “Two Blokes Talking Electric Cars” podcast is available now on all major podcast platforms including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Pocketcasts and YouTube. Listen here
https://www.youtube.com/@EFTM

Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries

[ii] CSIRO - Electric vehicle projections 2022
Click to expand...
 
qldfrog said:
I have decided to take a break from this thread, life is too short to read endless crap about how an EV is saving money vs an equivalent ICE, and not to mention the supposedly better fossil fuel efficiency on the whole time life.
Still interested in the tech side, but news feed will do that.
There are obvious arguments: engineering fun, absence of inner city exhausts, and even stop start ( busses, garbage trucks, etc) where EV are a no brainers.
But until someone can point to a spreadsheet detailing how a 20k km a year car user in qld is better off $ wise using an EV vs equivalent ICE (orange for orange) I am out ..
And no, a tesla is not equivalent to a luxury car😂
Similarly, when on a life cycle Inc building disposal, per km, an EV in Australia consumes less fossil fuel than a diesel ICE, msg me and I will join again.
in the meantime, trying to focus on life
Click to expand...

You will be missed.
 
Choose an EV model that is also sold in California, the battery will most likely last longer than others.

EVs have long battery warranties, and most can be expected to offer a usable life of between eight and 12 years. Automakers are required to provide at least an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty for electric vehicles, and EVs sold in California are required to have a ten-year/150,000-mile battery warranty.​

How Long Should An Electric Car's Battery Last?

The good news is that EV batteries can be expected to offer a usable life of between eight and 12 years.

Range anxiety was one of the early issues held up as a reason the general public might not adopt EVs, but that has largely faded as many new electric models offer gas engine-rivaling range numbers. Charging speeds and charger availability are more significant issues, but buyers still question how long they can expect their new EV to last. Mostly, they worry about the battery. Unlike gas cars, which have well-known issues and repair costs at this point, EV battery replacement costs are largely a mystery to many buyers because of the vehicles’ relatively brief time on sale.

What are electric batteries made out of?

The batteries in electric vehicles are made of the same materials as the batteries powering cell phones, laptops, and other electronic devices. Though some companies have developed alternative chemistries, batteries typically contain lithium, nickel, manganese, and cobalt. The proportions of those elements may vary between batteries and vehicle types, and other materials may be used, but the basic building blocks are relatively consistent. Automakers are working to engineer cobalt out of their batteries due to the environmental impacts of extracting the material, and solid-state batteries will further change the EV supply chain when they finally arrive.

How long do EV batteries last?

Insurance site The Zebra surveyed Americans last year, finding that the average length of car ownership is about eight years. The good news is that EVs have long battery warranties, and most can be expected to offer a usable life of between eight and 12 years. Automakers are required to provide at least an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty for electric vehicles, and EVs sold in California are required to have a ten-year/150,000-mile battery warranty.

That said, many EVs are close to exceeding that 12-year threshold. The Tesla Model S debuted in 2012, and there are several on sale today with odometer readings far exceeding 100,000 miles. These examples might not be in top condition, but their batteries still have enough life to make them practical as commuters. So, while an EV’s battery might not offer the best capacity after several years on the road, it’s not like the car just stops working as it degrades.

What affects EV battery life?
EV batteries degrade over time for a variety of reasons, not all of which are related to driving. Just like that old Nokia phone you threw in a drawer 15 years ago, EV batteries lose capacity over time, even if they’re not in use. Automakers were cautious early on, advising that batteries could degrade as quickly as five years after the car was new, but those warnings now seem overblown. Industry research firm Recurrent said that it’s not unusual to see a five to 10 percent drop in capacity after five years, which would yield somewhere around a 20 percent reduction during the warranty coverage period.

Frequent DC fast charging will also lead to more battery degradation than slow charging. Many new EVs come with Level 3 or DC fast charging capabilities, but most automakers advise only occasional use to prevent premature capacity loss. Kia quotes a ten percent loss over eight years due to DC fast charging. Still, several factors play a role in that degradation, including the robustness of the vehicle’s battery preconditioning system.

Cold Weather Impact On Batteries

The weather impacts battery life, though the effects can be temporary, depending on the situation. Cold weather causes a range loss and can make charging much slower. Using the vehicle’s climate control systems can drain the battery faster, and the drop can be as much as 40 percent for some vehicles. Charging takes far longer, and systems like regenerative braking might not work as well in extreme cold. Some new EVs have heat pump systems and preconditioning routines that warm the battery to prepare for charging, but the reality is that the cold can make owning an EV annoying at times.

Warm weather has a similar effect, though its degradation can be permanent. Battery preconditioning systems can help prevent some of that loss, but the differences in degradation between cars with robust battery management and those without can be minor over time.

How do I prevent my EV battery from degrading?

One of the best things you can do to maintain your EV’s battery over time is to avoid fully charging or discharging. It’s best to try not to run the battery down past ten percent, and unless you absolutely need the range, avoid charging to more than 80 or 90 percent. Many new EVs offer detailed range estimates with the ability to opt for a limited charging session. They can also tell you, with reasonable accuracy, your car’s state of charge.

It also helps to manage the temperatures your EV is exposed to. If possible, park in a covered garage or shaded area to prevent excess heat buildup. Leaving it plugged in can also help, as many models offer battery temperature management when charging. That can also help manage your range while preconditioning the cabin with the air conditioner or heat. Plugging in does not mean leaving your car on a DC fast charger, which is not only rude to other people looking to charge but can cause faster degradation over time.

Can you replace EV batteries?

The short answer here is yes. You can replace EV batteries. If you’re lucky, the battery replacement can happen under warranty and might not cost a fortune to perform, but owners of older EVs might not be so fortunate. Depending on the model, it can cost as much as $20,000 or more, though many plug-in hybrids have smaller batteries that cost far less. The cost per kilowatt-hour varies, but some estimates peg the number as high as $500 or more per kW. There’s good news in the fact that batteries are getting cheaper as the technology improves, which could push prices down to less than $200/kW in the near future.

As EVs proliferate, third-party companies are hopping into the game, offering as much as a 20 percent discount over a factory-backed dealer battery replacement. They could be a solid option if your warranty has expired, but it’s best to go down the OEM-approved route if your car still has coverage. There’s also the matter of time, as battery packs can take weeks or even months to arrive, depending on the vehicle. That could render your car useless during the waiting period, which, for many EV owners, is not possible.

Frequently Asked Questions

Can EV batteries be recycled?

Yes, though maybe not in the way we traditionally think of “recycling.” The technology for physically breaking a battery down into its component materials and reusing them is still in its infancy, and the value of the recycled material isn’t high enough for it to be commercially viable. That said, a “second use” industry could become mainstream, where companies repurpose the packs for home energy storage and other purposes.

Can you repair EV batteries?

The short answer is yes, but it depends on the type of damage, the usable battery life, and a host of other questions. It’s also important to point out that repairing an EV battery without creating a health or safety hazard takes time and a skilled professional.

Why are EV batteries so expensive to replace?

The raw materials required to make an EV battery are difficult and costly to extract from the earth, and some come from countries with which the United States has strained diplomatic or economic relations, complicating EV supply chains. Solid-state batteries and alternative battery chemistries promise to change this relationship, but the issue is significant enough to drive requirements for U.S. EV tax credit rules in 2024.

More On Battery Life​

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Wouldn't want an EV when this happens. Victorians without power.
Article concludes with:
As of midday on Wednesday, authorities believed around 50 per cent of the people who lost power yesterday had been reconnected — so around 220,000 homes and businesses remain without power.

AEMO spokesperson Jonathan Geddes said that number would continue to reduce.

"The information that I have is that this will be dramatically reduced over the next 36 hours down to a very low level," he said.

But Emergency Management Commissioner Rick Nugent said it could be up to a week for some people to get power back, if they're in areas with local lines impacted.
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moXJO said:
I'm still not sold on evs. Multiple reasons.
Some of those reasons is the large scale adoption that needs to happen. I just can't see it happening at the moment due to issues with infrastructure and practicality.

I was arguing with someone on here back in I think 2017 - 2019 about how I thought it would take a decade to see large scale adoption. They argued it would be 2 years and evs were ready to go. I still don't see many of the concerns I had then being addressed now.

Even when we do hit numbers I can see a whole other set of problems opening up.
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I've got one and I agree 100%.
At the moment I would put it like this, a tuk tuk is great in Kuta, I'm not sure it will be the goto form of transport in country Australia.
We find our EV great and we love it, but we aren't completely dependent on it, as we were 30 years ago, where work and family comitments were far greater.
But eventually it will all find a balance, at the moment there is a lot of affirmative action eventually a balance will be found.
 
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Craton said:
Wouldn't want an EV when this happens. Victorians without power.
Article concludes with:
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Why, can your petrol bowser run without electricity?

Any way, I would think most people with EV's are charging their cars daily they don't wait till they are empty to fill up like petrol folk, so if the power goes off they would be pretty full and could go a few days without power, not to mention that they can just drive some where else and use a public charger if they really needed to, like a petrol car would have to do anyway.

Also, if you are a real Tesla fan with a Tesla home battery you would just continue charging at home off grid, while other people sit in the dark.
 
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