Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Fossil fuels won't last forever and as they run out we will be increasingly dependent on overseas sources for liquid fuels.

Electricity we can produce ourselves, sure there are downsides to everything but EV's will dominate the market inside 20 years, like it or not.

Thats the biggest factor for me.

The more oil we use the money we send over seas to fund and sustain infrastructure and jobs over seas.

The more electricity we use the more we fund and sustain infrastructure right across Australia creating new industries here and many well paid jobs and profitable capital allocations.

being more self sufficient is also a great bonus.

———————

When I was on a cruise in the Bahamas, I sat down for a Meal at one of those shared Tables with a guy from Kentucky, a real Trump loving, Red Neck type, that didn’t believe in climate change ( @qldfrog ) would love him.

With no help from me, some how the topic of the conversation at the table got on to EV’s and the “Evil Californian woke people”

Turns out he loves America but Hates Ev’s, I pointed out that Teslas are All American, and when you drive one you are supporting American energy companies and Jobs, and sending less money to Arabs. That seemed to flick a switch in him. I said think of those guys earning the big bucks building and maintaining the wind turbines as a new generation of hard working All American oil riggers, and he seemed to love that idea.

 

[qldfrog]

Fossil fuels won't last forever and as they run out we will be increasingly dependent on overseas sources for liquid fuels.

Electricity we can produce ourselves, sure there are downsides to everything but EV's will dominate the market inside 20 years, like it or not.

EVs not so sure..
That is the issue, non oil burning, maybe but why decide the winner and mandate it?
Let's Tesla and byd compete, sure on roi and economics but government should not decide that a lithium battery and not for example an H2 fuel cell is the answer.
In less than 4 years during WWII, in occupied France, oil was unavailable at all, and the whole trucks and delivery car etc was transformed to use wood gas.
Plenty of time
When oil will become too dear, change will come, but we should not decide winners especially when the decision is political and made by people who have a loonnnng history to be both corrupt and always wrong and incompetent.
If an EVs consumes more oil/coal per km in its lifetime than an ICE, do you agree it is not a solution to oil limited availabilty?
I would assume any non brain dead would agree?
So then let's prove within doubt that this is not the case before giving tax incentive and mandates.
Facts, numbers,sciences and technology before ideology and financial lobbies ...
And let's progress EVs as a part of the offer.
Battery weight, not only capacity or recharge time is also an area which is really an issue no-one mentions.

 

[Value Collector]

1. EVs are a fantasy indulgence of rich elites in the city.

2. Me, I'm holding on to my petrol Corolla. Enabling me to boil the planet, and cause massive species extinction.

In my Corolla, tootling up to the shops.

1. that used to be cars in general

2. The most environmentally friendly thing to do is keep your corolla going as long as you can, and when it’s at the end of its life recycle it and buy a plug in hybrid version, or a second hand ev you can tootle up to the shops in.

You seem very angry and cynical for some reason, when no one is trying to stop you driving your corolla, and it seems weird because one of the reasons the corolla exists is because of increasing efficiency standards over the years. Ev’s are just a natural extension of this, because the internal combustion engine has pretty much peaked.

 

[Value Collector]

EVs not so sure..
That is the issue, non oil burning, maybe but why decide the winner and mandate it?
Let's Tesla and byd compete, sure on raw egg oi and economics but government should not decide that a lithium battery and not for example an H2 fuel cell is the answer.
In less than 4 years during WWII, in occupied France, oil was unavailable at all, and the whole trucks and delivery car etc was transformed to use wood gas.
When oil will become too dear, change will come, but we should not decide winner especially when the decision is political and made by people who have a loonnnng history to be both corrupt and always wrong and incompetent.
If an EVs consumes more oil/coal per km in its lifetime than an ICE, do you agree it is not a solution to oil limited availabilty?
I would assume any non brain dead would agree?
So then let's prove within doubt that this is not the case before giving tax incentive and mandates.
Facts, numbers,sciences and technology before ideology and financial lobbies ...

firstly evs don’t consume more oil than ice.

The government isn’t picking the winning Tech, They are saying we should move to emissions free vehicles not a particular Tech.

If some one designs a H2 vehicle that can compete thats fine, but you said you were worried able supply chains and charging etc, it’s going to be much harder to install H2 fuelling and distribution.

Also, you said you were worried about the 5-10% energy loss on charging a battery, the energy loss on making and using H2 is huge in comparison .

 

[qldfrog]

Note:
We should have a different thread between EVs: the offer, the models, etc and the push to mandate EVs.
Driving a Tesla or a byd, etc is not evil or good inherently .
The tech, improvements, new market offers etc is a different subject, different from the forced mandated move.

 

[SirRumpole]

Turns out he loves America but Hates Ev’s, I pointed out that Teslas are All American,

Apart from the ones built in China that is.

 

[qldfrog]

Apart from the ones built in China that is.

Indeed, I actually thought all Tesla sold here now were China sourced?

 

[qldfrog]

firstly evs don’t consume more oil than ice.

The government isn’t picking the winning Tech, They are saying we should move to emissions free vehicles not a particular Tech.

If some one designs a H2 vehicle that can compete thats fine, but you said you were worried able supply chains and charging etc, it’s going to be much harder to install H2 fuelling and distribution.

Also, you said you were worried about the 5-10% energy loss on charging a battery, the energy loss on making and using H2 is huge in comparison .

Maybe CF H2, I just say government should not choose the winner.
"firstly evs don’t consume more oil than ice."
Prove it, per km,including obviously from manufacturing to let's say death of vehicle and recycling, and where the power to charge it come from..even your solar panels before they give you your "free" green power need a huge amount of coal, gas and oil to be ready on your roof.
I understand you do not put fuel in your Tesla..but if Australia can not even produce green power which is producing less CO2..so fossil fuels..than a fossil fuel equivalent plant in 2024, who can?
Ohh yes Iceland or Quebec..or nuclear power but another story.
but we are neither
Then there is the manufacturing of fhe battery, transport of (heavier) vehicles etc
Anyway , so far, an Australian average 20k km a year EVs is not saving any fossil fuel on its lifetime.
Anyway another subject..part of the shabby EVs save the world BS..

 

[SirRumpole]

Indeed, I actually thought all Tesla sold here now were China sourced?

Correct as far as I can find out.

 

[SirRumpole]

"
The Australian new car market is rapidly turning Chinese – and the trend is likely to accelerate.

Chinese-built cars already account for 16 per cent of all new cars sold in Australia (third behind Japan and Thailand), but in the battery electric vehicle category – which is to say, the future – they completely dominate.

Just over 86 per cent of Australia’s BEVs are sourced from China, including all our Teslas and Polestars, all electric Volvos and some BMWs."

Why Chinese EVs are storming Australia

The Australian new car market is rapidly turning Chinese and in the battery electric vehicle category they completely dominate.

www.afr.com

 

[qldfrog]

About the fact our solar and wind farms attached to batteries are more CO2 producing than our fossil fuel plants, I am trying hard to find back the study I found a couple of months ago:
Not lucky so far which is not surprising, I got this so far:

Estimating The Carbon Footprint Of Utility-Scale Battery Storage

As utilities combine renewable energy with large battery storage systems, there has been increasing interest in the carbon footprint of such systems. In this article, I attempt to make that calculation.

www.forbes.com

But the study I read was for an Australia specif wind and solar farm coupled with battery.
I copied this in the power generation thread
For an EV, you need to add the actual fossil fuel cost of EV plus battery building, provision,running and disposing vs ice vehicle

 

[Value Collector]

Apart from the ones built in China that is.

Well yeah, but all the ones sold in the USA are American made, and even the ones made in China are still creating profits for the USA

 

[Value Collector]

1. Maybe CF H2, I just say government should not choose the winner.

They aren’t

"firstly evs don’t consume more oil than ice."
Prove it, per km,including obviously from manufacturing to let's say death of vehicle and recycling, and where the power to charge it come from..even your solar panels before they give you your "free" green power need a huge amount of coal, gas and oil to be ready on your roof.
I understand you do not put fuel in your Tesla..but if Australia can not even produce green power which is producing less CO2..so fossil fuels..than a fossil fuel equivalent plant in 2024, who can?

I have already linked videos, that prove that, with the scientific studies linked in the description.

If you want to include the full supply chain of Ev’s you have to include the full supply chain petrol, you could nearly charge all the Ev’s in the world just with the electricity used to move and refine oil. Watch these two videos the first shows you the back end of your petrol supply. The second explains what you want to know about how many kms it takes before an ev becomes less polluting than a petrol.

Ohh yes Iceland or Quebec..or nuclear power but another story.
but we are neither
Then there is the manufacturing of fhe battery, transport of (heavier) vehicles etc
Anyway , so far, an Australian average 20k km a year EVs is not saving any fossil fuel on its lifetime.
Anyway another subject..part of the shabby EVs save the world BS..

We actually produce huge amounts of renewable energy here wind, solar and hydro make up a big chunk of our energy supply and they are growing.

First screen shot shows how it’s growing over the past 6 years, and the second shows the actually supply right now as I type this, and as the solar dies off tonight they crank up the hydro.

 

[farmerge]

Fossil fuels won't last forever and as they run out we will be increasingly dependent on overseas sources for liquid fuels.

Electricity we can produce ourselves, sure there are downsides to everything but EV's will dominate the market inside 20 years, like it or not.

Perhaps as the prices of fuel escalates the use of sweat machines in the inner city burbs may make a bigger come back. Back in the day when I was an apprentice, I use to ride the bike to work every day. Constantly beat the buses and didn't have any parking worries.

 

[qldfrog]

Perhaps as the prices of fuel escalates the use of sweat machines in the inner city burbs may make a bigger come back. Back in the day when I was an apprentice, I use to ride the bike to work every day. Constantly beat the buses and didn't have any parking worries.

And they can be electric but if successful, you will soon need a licence, a rego, pay a parking fee, a helmet and be fined if speeding ..last2 already implemented
Probably soon need to add fluo jacket, etc
I cycled to my "big Australian miner" job 4 days a week in my time, saving paid for the carbon bike and was healthy with 50km a day commuting.
A bit longer than train.
As I can fart and breath. Was not carbon zero....

 

[Craton]

Well then yeah in your extreme case maybe stick to petrol cars for the next few years.

charging times aren’t as big a deal as you think, you charge at home at night, and for most people never have to charge away from the house.

if you do end up doing 400 kms+ in day, you stop for 10mins just to add enough to get home and do a full charge at home, you don’t have to sit at a charger waiting for it to go to 100%, you just need enough to get home.

its the same on a road trip, you need to stop to pee, so you plug in charge for a few minutes and keep driving, you don’t wait for 100%.

I do Sydney - Brisbane route a couple of times a year, it takes me no longer than the petrol car used to. Instead of having to fuel up at the start like I would with the petrol car, I start with a full battery about 3 hours into the drive we stop for a pee break and 15 mins charging, then drive for another 3 hours by then it’s lunch time the so plug in grab lunch, keep driving then one more 20 min stop some where gets us to north of Sydney Where the family is. most people need to make at least 2 fuel stops to do that trip eg one at start and one somewhere near the end to fuel up again, it to mention food and drink.

i really think that once you see an EV in the hands of a real user and not a cyclical talking head on the internet you will change your mind about a lot of the things.

Mate, don't even go there about changing my mind.
If the bush aka remote and regional Australia had the same benefits, e.g. services, infrastructure, funding, privileges as you east coasters, our EV discussion wouldn't even be entered into.

Yep they were all tossed out.

States are not allowed to charge the Tax. The fuel excise they say they want to replace is a federal tax, The states were just trying to cash grab.

The States charge for vehicle registration, which EV’s already pay, they really have no right to try and charge additional amounts.

There are four main ways roads are funded

1. Local government rates - EV owners pay already.

2. Vehicle Rego - Ev owners pay that already

3. Tolls - Ev owners pay that already

4. Fuel excise - Ev’s don’t pay this but they do pay GST on electricity they purchase. Fuel excise is a federal tax and up to the federal government to decide not states, for the moment they are choosing not to tax EV’s because of the other benefits worth incentivising eg. Lower air pollution, less green house gases, etc etc

Understood.
The Fed Govt. could change this in the future just as it is with Fuel Efficiency Standards.
Reads in part:

With Australia and Russia the only developed nations left without fuel-efficiency rules, the nation is in a race to catch up. That has car makers watching closely to see the government does not go "too hard, too fast".

 

[Craton]

FWIW, the Worldometer has real time stats across a range of sectors and specifics.

Like CO2 but note the latest data is from 2016.

Of interest, the current estimate is for oil to run out in approx. 39yrs. That's one big red flag and underlines the accelerated push away from dino oil. Naturally this estimate could all change with further Saudi Arabia or Venezuela type discoveries.

Of even more interest is the CO2 emissions we Aussies produce per capita and against other countries. 14th on the list.

 

[Jeda]

Mate, don't even go there about changing my mind.
If the bush aka remote and regional Australia had the same benefits, e.g. services, infrastructure, funding, privileges as you east coasters, our EV discussion wouldn't even be entered into.

mate, cry me a river

 

[Craton]

mate, cry me a river

Sure, no worries cobber, it's called the Baaka!

 

[Jeda]

Sure, no worries cobber, it's called the Baaka!

Yeah Baka mammas hand will give you something to crya bout