Electric cars?

[SirRumpole]

And wind turbines on the rudder?

I doubt it.

However we may see the return of hydrogen powered blimps I f we can get the Hindenburg out of our minds.

 

[wayneL]

I doubt it.

However we may see the return of hydrogen powered blimps I f we can get the Hindenburg out of our minds.

Boooo, thought I'd just invented a perpetual motion machine ?

 

[qldfrog]

Solar panels on the wings might help.

More seriously, why not consider e fuel.i know it is a dirty word, does not need new plane and is not woke
after all carbon neutral and superhigh energy density
Instead of transforming planes into Hindenburg bombs with H2..which has too low energy density or lithium crematorium paper weights..
As an engineer..aka solving problems with sciences and technology, the craziness of some of the trends is maddening

 

[Smurf1976]

why not consider e fuel

Ultimately it's horrendously inefficient in terms of getting energy from the primary source to the wheels.

That said, well there's a lot of internal combustion engines around and there's at least one production plant proposed in Australia that I'm aware of so we could see it to some extent.

 

[qldfrog]

Ultimately it's horrendously inefficient in terms of getting energy from the primary source to the wheels.

That said, well there's a lot of internal combustion engines around and there's at least one production plant proposed in Australia that I'm aware of so we could see it to some extent.

Rockets are not efficient yet we are not using rubber bands.
Efficiency is not everything.
Speed, or doing the actual job can be important.
If you assume that CO2 is an issue .i strongly disagree there but my opinion is irrelevant, then you ghave to consider: cost economic and ecologic of new plane vs existing one, and capacity....
Electric planes are propeller planes not jets.. not that efficient as they fly lower, are restricted to short hops, slower and have far less carrying ability so might need multiple trips of e version vs fuel one.
Sure, for air trips from gold coast to sunshine coast and sunday flights.
Maybe even Europe or US intercities. A few hundred kms
But not for a Brisbane HK or even Brisbane Sydney...
A slow return to the 1920s.step by step we creep.
Going backwards for ideology and greed

 

[Smurf1976]

Efficiency is not everything.
Speed, or doing the actual job can be important.

Totally agree and there's countless examples where the technically most efficient way of doing something and the commercially practical one are not the same.

My guess is there are still some surprises in store with all of this.

 

[mullokintyre]

Electric planes are propeller planes not jets.. not that efficient as they fly lower, are restricted to short hops, slower and have far less carrying ability so might need multiple trips of e version vs fuel one.

I might take issue with the above statement.
People often confuse modern jet enginess with rocket propulsion.
Electric planes can be propeller or can be turbo fans.
In a turbo fan jet, the avtur is burnt to produce the rotational speed of a turbine, which sucks air in and speeds it up via a series of compressor rotors.
The thrust is largely supplied by the air being accelerated, with only a small part of the thrust is provided by exausting the burnt hot gasses.
A turbo fan built using an electric motor is being tested right now.
They have some distinct advantages, made with with fewer parts, cheaper to build, quieter, and do not have the spool up/down lag times that current avtur engines have.
The project may not scale up, but smaller electric turbo fans have been built and tested.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Looks like the Cyber truck isn't coming to Aus.

Tesla Cybertruck deposits to be refunded in Australia after online ordering disappears

Two months after the Cybertruck was wiped from Tesla’s Australian website, customers who placed an order can apply for a refund of their deposit.

www.drive.com.au

 

[mullokintyre]

Looks like the Cyber truck isn't coming to Aus.

Tesla Cybertruck deposits to be refunded in Australia after online ordering disappears

Two months after the Cybertruck was wiped from Tesla’s Australian website, customers who placed an order can apply for a refund of their deposit.

www.drive.com.au

They still have not got any sales in the US, this truck was unveiled in 2019, and the price tag was USD$39,9990, close enough to $40k.
It is now not due until 2023, though there are some bets out it will not make that deadline either.
The price tag will most likely be somewhat higher as well.
According to one of the articles I read The teal mango
The main reason for cancellation in OZ, the UK and Europe is due to regulatory compliance in these countries, that do not allow sharp angles , particularly at the front.
It also suggests that production of the vehicle will not start until late 2023 at best, but they do have over a million orders for the vehicle, which may also explain part of the reason for the cancellation.
A million orders is probably a couple of years supply.
In the meantime, Rivian, one of the cybertrucks main rivals, has already had its truck out in the market, although at a planned production run next quarter of a 3000 units, its not going to flood the market. Particulary if it concentrates on the 100,000 EV vans that Amazon has ordered.
Cybertucks other main rival the F150 , is also in production and making deliveries.
It will be a more serious rival as Ford plan to produce 150,000 trucks in 2023.
GMC will start production of the Silverado EV early in 2023, so it will also be out there competing with the Cybertruck.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

I might take issue with the above statement.
People often confuse modern jet enginess with rocket propulsion.
Electric planes can be propeller or can be turbo fans.
In a turbo fan jet, the avtur is burnt to produce the rotational speed of a turbine, which sucks air in and speeds it up via a series of compressor rotors.
The thrust is largely supplied by the air being accelerated, with only a small part of the thrust is provided by exausting the burnt hot gasses.
A turbo fan built using an electric motor is being tested right now.
They have some distinct advantages, made with with fewer parts, cheaper to build, quieter, and do not have the spool up/down lag times that current avtur engines have.
The project may not scale up, but smaller electric turbo fans have been built and tested.
Mick

Thanks did not know that.so turbine but electric motor propelled.. why not
Weight issue still there..plus the fact an empty battery is as heavy as a fully loaded one....so same weight when taking off than on landing..makes a ..big..difference.

 

[mullokintyre]

Thanks did not know that.so turbine but electric motor propelled.. why not
Weight issue still there..plus the fact an empty battery is as heavy as a fully loaded one....so same weight when taking off than on landing..makes a ..big..difference.

Weight in planes is a very inexact science.
Fuel burn during flight can certainly reduce weight, but sometimes you have to consider where the Centre of gravity shifts , so that it does not move out of the flying envelope.
The flying characteristics of an aircraft can change with the change of C of G.
There is also the consideration that whenever you add fuel to increase range, it s not linear, because you then have to add fuel to get that extra weight off the round, which means you have to add fuel , and so on.
There is also the consideration that for most commercial aircraft, the max takeoff weight is significantly higher than the max landing weight, which means that often an aircraft that has to return to base soon after takeoff, has to either burn fuel or dump it to get below the max landing weight.
So there some advantages as well as disadvantages to having the fixed weight of the batteries, but it limits the max takeoff weight to whatever the max landing weight might be.
It may be a case where a hybrid type combination would be useful.
Aircraft like the venerable 747 have an auxillary power unit (APU) at the very back which is a small avtur burning turbine that provides electrical power to the cabin. By adding as much avtur on board that is the difference between the landing and takeoff weight, they could run a genset to keep the batteries topped up during flight and over the course of the flight bring gross weight back to max landing weight.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

Weight in planes is a very inexact science.
Fuel burn during flight can certainly reduce weight, but sometimes you have to consider where the Centre of gravity shifts , so that it does not move out of the flying envelope.
The flying characteristics of an aircraft can change with the change of C of G.
There is also the consideration that whenever you add fuel to increase range, it s not linear, because you then have to add fuel to get that extra weight off the round, which means you have to add fuel , and so on.
There is also the consideration that for most commercial aircraft, the max takeoff weight is significantly higher than the max landing weight, which means that often an aircraft that has to return to base soon after takeoff, has to either burn fuel or dump it to get below the max landing weight.
So there some advantages as well as disadvantages to having the fixed weight of the batteries, but it limits the max takeoff weight to whatever the max landing weight might be.
It may be a case where a hybrid type combination would be useful.
Aircraft like the venerable 747 have an auxillary power unit (APU) at the very back which is a small avtur burning turbine that provides electrical power to the cabin. By adding as much avtur on board that is the difference between the landing and takeoff weight, they could run a genset to keep the batteries topped up during flight and over the course of the flight bring gross weight back to max landing weight.
Mick

A 747 sized electric plane? We are decades away from that, yes some sort of hybrid would work but why? The saving in CO2 would only be when cruising, the weight and size of the hybrid unit will had high cost and complexity when there are better alternatives available.

"The primary problem lies in battery technology: an electric-powered aircraft the size of a Boeing 747 would require 90MW at takeoff"

Although there is lot of talk these days about electronic aircraft, technology required to develop a large electric transport aircraft remains more than elusive.

Actually, it is beyond imagination, says David Alexander, director at the aerospace standards-setting organisation SAE International.

The primary problem lies in battery technology: an electric-powered aircraft the size of a Boeing 747 would require 90MW at takeoff, the equivalent of 4.4 million laptop batteries, he says.

"No one yet has been able to predict with any certainty, based on technology today, that they would be able to find the right power-to-weight ratio for a fully electric large aircraft," Alexander says. "The only thing we have is a… trust in the ingenuity of aerospace engineers."

That is not to say fully electric large aircraft are impossible.

Indeed, technology can be unforeseen – just 10 years ago many people doubted the viability of electric cars, notes Alexander, whose group serves as a forum through which aerospace companies work together to advance technology.

Several companies recently announced plans to develop electric regional aircraft. JetBlue and Boeing are involved with a company called Zunum Aero to develop a 10- to 50-seat hybrid electric aircraft.

Aerospace companies are already converting some mechanical and hydraulic components to electric equivalents, says Alexander, noting that Bombardier's CSeries has electric brakes.

But such changes can reduce fuel usage by only 3%, he says.

An electric large transport is likely to look wholly different to today's jetliners. For example, the engines might be integrated into the aircraft itself, as with a flying-wing design, he adds.

PARIS: How many laptop batteries could power a 747 to takeoff?

Although there is lot of talk these days about electronic aircraft, technology required to develop a large electric transport aircraft remains more than elusive.

www.flightglobal.com

https://reneweconomy.com.au/rio-tin...n-world-and-shine-path-to-100-pct-renewables/
Rio Tinto battery to be biggest of its type in world. A 45MW big battery now under construction for mining giant Rio Tinto’s massive iron ore operations in Western Australia will be the biggest of its type in the world

 

[mullokintyre]

I agree, there is little chance of there being a 747 sized aircraft using existing technology, I was using the example of the APU on the 747 as an example of the genset capabilities already in use.
I don't know if you read the original article, but it was talking about small commuter aircraft in the 12 to 26 passenger size aircraft doing short regional commuter hops.
Which is were the growth for EV type aircraft is more likely to be.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

Ford has signed a new round of deals to lock in critical mineral supplies from Aussie miners

Automotive giant Ford has stepped up its efforts to secure its future supply chain in the electric vehicle space, with the company’s eyes firmly set on Australian-listed partners to secure essential minerals needed for its giant factories.

The deals are part of a $US50bn plan by Ford to produce more than 2 million electric vehicles by 2026. Ford is only one among many carmakers planning a rapid expansion into the electric vehicle market, which has promoted warnings that the supply of essential battery materials such as lithium, graphite, nickel and cobalt might struggle to keep up with the automotive industry’s manufacturing plans.

Ford announced on Thursday night it had cut new early stage supply deals with a swath of Australian miners, including mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, down to emerging producers such as Ioneer and Syrah Resources.

The carmaker already has a supply deal with ASX-listed Liontown Resources for the supply of lithium from Liontown’s under-construction Kathleen Valley project.

The slew of deals from Ford is another signal the race to lock in essential raw materials for electric vehicles and industrial batteries is stepping up a gear.

Ford is helping fund Liontown’s Australian lithium mine with a $300m debt facility, in exchange for guaranteed supply from the operation, and the car major’s support for Kathleen Valley was the last block needed by the company to approve development of the mine.

Overnight Ford also signed a binding offtake deal for 7000 tonnes a year of lithium carbonate from Ioneer’s Rhyolite Ridge lithium project in Nevada, about a third of the planned production from the integrated mine and processing facility.

Ford’s deals with Rio, BHP and Syrah are not as advanced, with the company signing memorandums of understanding with the trio for the supply of a range of materials necessary for Ford’s push into the electric vehicle market.

BHP’s Nickel West operations could supply Ford from 2025, if this week’s agreement is formalised into a binding contract.

Syrah’s UK graphite plant could supply materials for Ford’s joint venture with South Korean battery maker SK On, with a formal deal expected by the end of 2022.

Rio Tinto said it is exploring a range of potential supply deals with the automaker, including aluminium from its Canadian smelters, and lithium from Rio’s newly acquired Rincon project in Argentina.

Ford said overnight the new supply deals would help underpin its ambition to be producing 600,000 electric vehicles a year by the end of 2023.

Ford vice president Lisa Drake said the automotive giant recognised it needed to sign more deals with miners and raw material suppliers if it wanted to secure its supply chains amid fierce competition and rising prices for battery making materials.

“We will move fast in the key markets and regions where critical supplies are available, meeting with government officials, mining companies and processors, and signing MOUs and agreements that reflect Ford’s ESG expectations and underpin Ford’s plan to bring electric vehicles to millions,” she said.

Ms Drake said Ford had already firmed up agreements that secured its nickel supply until at least 2026.

And while Ford has so far only offered funding to the development of Liontown’s Kathleen Valley mine, industry sources say the company has been more than willing to offer similar arrangements to other raw material suppliers as it negotiates offtake deals.

Ms Drake confirmed on Thursday that a portion of Ford’s $US50bn electric vehicle investment plan included cash to bankroll mines and chemical processing plants.

“I can‘t disclose how much of the $50 billion, but the capital is inside of that number that we reported,” she told analysts on Thursday night.

Ioneer shears closed up 2.5c, or 5 per cent, to 52c on Friday. Syrah shares were up 2c to $1.335, with Liontown down 4c to $1.20, BHP off 4c to $36.75 and Rio up 43c to $96.26.

NICK EVANS RESOURCE WRITER

 

[sptrawler]

The subscription model accelerates.

Tesla makes navigation a monthly subscription after first eight years

New Tesla orders no longer come with lifetime access to satellite navigation. Instead, it forms part of a monthly subscription eight years after taking delivery.

www.drive.com.au

Spotted by Teslarati, all new Tesla vehicles ordered globally after Wednesday 20 July, 2022 will no longer come with lifetime access to the Standard Connectivity package.
Instead, the Standard Connectivity package – which includes satellite navigation, Bluetooth, playback via a USB drive, and FM radio – will expire after eight years from the date of delivery, and become an optional extra.

In North America, the Standard Connectivity pack also includes SiriusXM satellite radio capability.
Tesla does not say whether basic functions such as Bluetooth and FM radio will be deleted once the free Standard Connectivity subscription ends after eight years. However, Tesla does say certain navigation functions will be removed.

While subscription services are being experimented with in the automotive industry – including BMW, which recently introduced monthly charges for heated seats – Tesla is the first major car brand to make core systems such as satellite navigation a subscription-based optional extra.
The Premium Connectivity package, which has been offered as a monthly subscription since 30 June 2019, adds live traffic and satellite maps for the navigation system, in-built music and video streaming, an in-car karaoke app, and an internet browser.
All Tesla vehicles come with a 30-day trial for the Premium Connectivity service; after which time a monthly $AU9.99 fee applies.

 

[SirRumpole]

The subscription model accelerates.

Tesla makes navigation a monthly subscription after first eight years

New Tesla orders no longer come with lifetime access to satellite navigation. Instead, it forms part of a monthly subscription eight years after taking delivery.

www.drive.com.au

Spotted by Teslarati, all new Tesla vehicles ordered globally after Wednesday 20 July, 2022 will no longer come with lifetime access to the Standard Connectivity package.
Instead, the Standard Connectivity package – which includes satellite navigation, Bluetooth, playback via a USB drive, and FM radio – will expire after eight years from the date of delivery, and become an optional extra.

In North America, the Standard Connectivity pack also includes SiriusXM satellite radio capability.
Tesla does not say whether basic functions such as Bluetooth and FM radio will be deleted once the free Standard Connectivity subscription ends after eight years. However, Tesla does say certain navigation functions will be removed.

While subscription services are being experimented with in the automotive industry – including BMW, which recently introduced monthly charges for heated seats – Tesla is the first major car brand to make core systems such as satellite navigation a subscription-based optional extra.
The Premium Connectivity package, which has been offered as a monthly subscription since 30 June 2019, adds live traffic and satellite maps for the navigation system, in-built music and video streaming, an in-car karaoke app, and an internet browser.
All Tesla vehicles come with a 30-day trial for the Premium Connectivity service; after which time a monthly $AU9.99 fee applies.

Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.

That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.

 

[sptrawler]

Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.

That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.

I can actually see the entertainment/navigation issue causing some trouble, as at the moment you can always use a third party nav system through apple car play or android auto, so to stop that the whole entertainment package will have to be disabled.
The problem with the subscription model is, it is a bit like buy now pay later, it is a poverty trap for people spending money before they earn it.
My guess is it will be a negative for Tesla as they have all their info on the central screen, it will IMO push buyers toward different manufacturers, but then again all the young people seem to be embracing the drip payment model, so maybe we fossils are getting out of touch with the new age.

 

[SirRumpole]

I can actually see the entertainment/navigation issue causing some trouble, as at the moment you can always use a third party nav system through apple car play or android auto, so to stop that the whole entertainment package will have to be disabled.
The problem with the subscription model is, it is a bit like buy now pay later, it is a poverty trap for people spending money before they earn it.
My guess is it will be a negative for Tesla as they have all their info on the central screen, it will IMO push buyers toward different manufacturers, but then again all the young people seem to be embracing the drip payment model, so maybe we fossils are getting out of touch with the new age.

Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.

I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.

It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?

 

[sptrawler]

Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.

I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.

It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?

Maybe even motor run and battery charge function? Sorry unless you pay an E.V subscription, we will disable your charge and run function, by the way we are currently doing a vehicle/ Netflicks and uber eats package at a 10% discount.?

 

[SirRumpole]

Maybe even motor run and battery charge function? Sorry unless you pay an E.V subscription, we will disable your charge and run function, by the way we are currently doing a vehicle/ Netflicks and uber eats package at a 10% discount.?

It's like a builder expecting to live in your house after you pay him in full for the finished product.