Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

It's like a builder expecting to live in your house after you pay him in full for the finished product.

Yes, or the builder saying, sorry you can only lease the doors, windows and toilet, you can't buy them outright.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, or the builder saying, sorry you can only lease the doors, windows and toilet, you can't buy them outright.

I really think that sort of thing should be illegal. It's all very well saying buy a car where that policy doesn't apply, but pretty sort all makers will be doing it and there will be no choice.

 

[sptrawler]

I really think that sort of thing should be illegal. It's all very well saying buy a car where that policy doesn't apply, but pretty sort all makers will be doing it and there will be no choice.

Yep, thin edge of the wedge, it isn't like the old days where you could say I don't want a radio, I will have a better after market one of my choice installed.
These new cars like the Tesla have everything driven through the infotainment system, so you have to buy it, it is a critical component.
The reason I didn't buy the Tesla model Y was because of the center all in one display, I didn't like it in my Mini Cooper S and I don't like it i the Tesla having to look to the center of the car to see your speed is crazy.
The other thing is all the A/C controls etc are on the center display, so how that is legal when you can be booked for looking or touching your phone is weired.
I'm waiting for someone to challenge it in court "why am I booked for touching my phone because it takes my attention from the road, when cars have a touch screen in the middle of the dashboard and I'm not booked for touching or looking at that, when it does exactly the same function"?
I'm surprised it hasn't been challenged, or that a display in front of the driver hasn't been made mandatory, maybe because the media yuppies and woke politicians drive a Tesla who knows?

 

[JohnDe]

Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.

That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.

Even after getting it for free for 8 years?

Tesla no longer provides their Standard Connectivity package, which includes basic navigation, at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle. According to an update on Tesla’s Connectivity support page, all new vehicle orders made after July 20, 2022 are impacted by the change.​

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“All new Tesla vehicles ordered on or before July 20, 2022, will have Standard Connectivity features at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle (excluding retrofits or upgrades required for any features or services externally supplied to the vehicle – e.g. telecommunications network).”​

​

If you place an order after July 20, 2022 your Standard Connectivity package will only be good for 8 years, after which you will have to begin paying for either the Standard or Premium package.​

Tesla limits Standard Connectivity package to 8 years on new vehicle purchases

Tesla's Standard Connectivity package will only be good for 8 years, after which you will have to begin paying for basic navigation.

driveteslacanada.ca

 

[SirRumpole]

Even after getting it for free for 8 years?

The principle is the same.

I pay money for a vehicle as is and I don't expect the seller to have any control over my vehicle after I pay the purchase price. I now OWN the vehicle.

Neither do I expect the builder of my house to charge me rent once I've paid him in full.

 

[Value Collector]

Yep, thin edge of the wedge, it isn't like the old days where you could say I don't want a radio, I will have a better after market one of my choice installed.
These new cars like the Tesla have everything driven through the infotainment system, so you have to buy it, it is a critical component.
The reason I didn't buy the Tesla model Y was because of the center all in one display, I didn't like it in my Mini Cooper S and I don't like it i the Tesla having to look to the center of the car to see your speed is crazy.
The other thing is all the A/C controls etc are on the center display, so how that is legal when you can be booked for looking or touching your phone is weired.
I'm waiting for someone to challenge it in court "why am I booked for touching my phone because it takes my attention from the road, when cars have a touch screen in the middle of the dashboard and I'm not booked for touching or looking at that, when it does exactly the same function"?
I'm surprised it hasn't been challenged, or that a display in front of the driver hasn't been made mandatory, maybe because the media yuppies and woke politicians drive a Tesla who knows?

Aren’t all cars aircon buttons and knobs in the centre area anyway?

Whether is the radio, aircon, navigation or other buttons most of them are in the similar area as the Tesla screen, so I don’t really see a difference.

The aircon temp adjust is always in the same spot on the screen, you get used to where it is just like you do in any other car, same with speed etc.

 

[sptrawler]

Another issue starting to evolve, with all this centralised control systems, no doubt it will mature but it looks like it is getting a bit ahead of itself IMO.

Tesla cars, Bluetooth locks, vulnerable to hackers, researchers say

Millions of digital locks worldwide, including on Tesla cars, can be remotely unlocked by hackers exploiting a vulnerability in Bluetooth technology, a cybersecurity firm said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

Millions of digital locks worldwide, including on Tesla (TSLA.O) cars, can be remotely unlocked by hackers exploiting a vulnerability in Bluetooth technology, a cybersecurity firm said on Tuesday.

In a video shared with Reuters, NCC Group researcher Sultan Qasim Khan was able to open and then drive a Tesla using a small relay device attached to a laptop which bridged a large gap between the Tesla and the Tesla owner's phone.
"This proves that any product relying on a trusted BLE connection is vulnerable to attacks even from the other side of the world," the UK-based firm said in a statement, referring to the Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) protocol - technology used in millions of cars and smart locks which automatically open when in close proximity to an authorised device.

Although Khan demonstrated the hack on a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NCC Group said any smart locks using BLE technology, including residential smart locks, could be unlocked in the same way.

 

[JohnDe]

The principle is the same.

I pay money for a vehicle as is and I don't expect the seller to have any control over my vehicle after I pay the purchase price. I now OWN the vehicle.

Neither do I expect the builder of my house to charge me rent once I've paid him in full.

You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?

 

[sptrawler]

Are all cars aircon buttons and knobs in the centre area anyway?

Whether is the radio, aircon, navigation or other buttons most of them are in the similar area as the Tesla screen, so I don’t really see a difference.

The aircon temp adjust is always in the same spot on the screen, you get used to where it is just like you do in any other car, same with speed etc.

With the touch screen, attention has to be diverted from the road to ensure you are accessing the correct function, with knobs it can be done by feel.
But no doubt it will all go to screen control, it doesn't mean it is better, just cheaper to incorporate and configure.
Everyone to their own IMO.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.

That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.

All the basic autopilot features are still free, it’s just the full self driving that you have to pay extra for, it used to cost about $10k upfront, but is now moving to subscription.

So if you don’t want to pay for it, your car will still drive down the freeway on autopilot, it just won’t do all the advanced features like navigate itself.

 

[SirRumpole]

You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?

The software may belong to the company, but so does the rest of the car until they sell it to a purchaser.

I really can't see the point you are trying to make.

Should I have to pay a subscription on the air-con as well ?

 

[JohnDe]

Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.

I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.

It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?

For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving, and/or not securely mounted.

No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav

Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving​

You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving. You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and, if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes.​

 

[sptrawler]

You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?

I think as I said the problem will be at the moment you can use a third party supplier eg waze, here we go etc, if the pairing function becomes subscription it IMO becomes a restrictive trade practice as you may not want to use the supplied navigation system. Most supplied navigation is rubbish anyway, open source of google maps is usually more up to date, so it wont be an issue, unless the manufacturer can lock you out of the pairing function, which i don't personally think should be allowed.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.

I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.

It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows

Sat Nav is already included for free, Teslas come with a free life time internet connection that runs the navigation and some back ground stuff.

But, you have to pay a $9 fee per month if you want the full internet package that comes with a Spotify subscription, and allows you to use YouTube and Netflix etc. but as I said the basic internet package is included.

—————
As I said also basic autopilot is included for free, it’s only the advanced features that cost extra, I believe the subscription is coming about because of consumer demand.

 

[JohnDe]

The software may belong to the company, but so does the rest of the car until they sell it to a purchaser.

I really can't see the point you are trying to make.

Should I have to pay a subscription on the air-con as well ?

My point is that the manufacturer gave a free 8 year bonus. I can't understand why someone would scratch a vehicle from their list of possible options just because they'll loose the free option after 8 years.

 

[SirRumpole]

For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving, and/or not securely mounted.

No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav

Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving​

You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving. You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and, if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes.​

All that stuff is pretty irrelevant if the phone verbally gives directions. I have the phone out of view and just do what the voice tells me.

 

[sptrawler]

For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving, and/or not securely mounted.

No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav

Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving​

You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving. You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and, if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes.​

That is exactly the point I was making earlier, how can touching a phone while moving, if it is in a secure holder, be treated any different to touching a screen on a infotainment system located away from the line of view, IMO it wont be long before it is tested in court.

 

[SirRumpole]

Sat Nav is already included for free, Teslas come with a free life time internet connection that runs the navigation and some back ground stuff.

But, you have to pay a $9 fee per month if you want the full internet package that comes with a Spotify subscription, and allows you to use YouTube and Netflix etc. but as I said the basic internet package is included.

—————
As I said also basic autopilot is included for free, it’s only the advanced features that cost extra, I believe the subscription is coming about because of consumer demand.

I think we would be naive to assume that the subscription thing won't spread to as many parts of the car as the makers can fit in.

It's just a way of gouging people for as long as they can.

 

[sptrawler]

I think we would be naive to assume that the subscription thing won't spread to as many parts of the car as the makers can fit in.

It's just a way of gouging people for as long as they can.

It is just recovering the costs they are going to lose from the servicing of an ICE vehicle, the Govt should step in and legislate, before it gets out of control IMO.

 

[Value Collector]

All that stuff is pretty irrelevant if the phone verbally gives directions. I have the phone out of view and just do what the voice tells me.

Don’t you pay a subscription for that phone?

Obviously it’s not going to work for you if you stop paying for the internet connection.