Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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Wysiwyg said:
Tesla banking on future increased battery efficiencies with their latest claims.
Tesla’s Newest Promises Break the Laws of Batteries
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-newest-promises-break-the-laws-of-batteries


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It's going to be one of those "i'll believe it when I see it" with Tesla.

The problem I see with some of their claims is that they seem to quote figures during test/isolated environment - as you would if you got any sense in you.

Does the nice figures work out similar or a whole lot worst in real operating condition.

I have seen videos where Tesla owners says the miles charge shown aren't accurate in urban/normal driving condition. The stop/start... basically it's freeway mileage when you're driving in traffic jam.

Would the battery charge and such still be true when the truck get off the freeway and into town and busy cities with countless traffic lights etc.
 
Speaking of chargers popping up...

The NRMA has today <20 October 2017> announced that it will establish Australia’s largest electric vehicle fast-charging network, suitable for a range of electric vehicles and free for NRMA Members.

More than 95 per cent of NRMA Member road trips will be covered by the network. The $10 million investment will deliver at least 40 chargers, more than double the size of the current network of chargers in NSW and the ACT.

The network will unlock Australia for electric vehicles, enabling stress-free journeys whether motorists are doing the daily city commute, or visiting beaches on the South Coast, weekend getaways to our world-class wine regions or snow trips to the mountains.
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https://www.mynrma.com.au/community/news-and-media-centre/nrma-to-build-ev-fast-charging-network

The article concludes with an invitation to "potential partners such as local councils and community groups to express their interest in working with the NRMA to bring a charger to their local area."

It doesn't say how they got to an average $250k for a charger, but that's got to be a lot less than the average cost of servo. Running costs would be much lower than any servo and the charger owner has a choice of suppliers, including generating their own. Looks to me like the business of fueling vehicles is about to lose its moat.

 
ghotib said:
Speaking of chargers popping up...


https://www.mynrma.com.au/community/news-and-media-centre/nrma-to-build-ev-fast-charging-network

The article concludes with an invitation to "potential partners such as local councils and community groups to express their interest in working with the NRMA to bring a charger to their local area."

It doesn't say how they got to an average $250k for a charger, but that's got to be a lot less than the average cost of servo. Running costs would be much lower than any servo and the charger owner has a choice of suppliers, including generating their own. Looks to me like the business of fueling vehicles is about to lose its moat.
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Surely existing service stations will start installing chargers? They already have most of the infrastructure required, i.e. entry/exit ramps, land, food/beverages, bathrooms etc. etc. and furthermore will not want to lose traffic once EVs become more prevalent.
 
Junior said:
Surely existing service stations will start installing chargers? They already have most of the infrastructure required, i.e. entry/exit ramps, land, food/beverages, bathrooms etc. etc. and furthermore will not want to lose traffic once EVs become more prevalent.
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I reckon coles and woolies will want in on the game, they have been dabbling in petrol for years, How easy would it be to convert some parking spaces to charging stations, attract customers with discounted charging while they do their shopping.

As I said earlier, fuel stations are going to find it hard to scratch out an existence, because.

1, Most charging will be done at home.

2, Non traditional areas will find it easy to compete, eg shopping centres, other carparks, please of employment etc.

3, Non traditional suppliers can add "free charging" to existing services, eg NRMA insurance polices, Valet Parking, Car washing, restaurant meals, hotel stays. etc etc

The only petrol stations that I see thriving are the locations along road trip routes that are convenient or have some existing attractions like popular food locations or rest areas.

But even then non traditional competition can spring up easily, like Tesla's superchargers that are appearing at areas away from your regular service stations, at places like the big banana, cafes, wineries, etc etc.

Even local councils along the major highways could add chargers to the existing rest stops, to help fund the maintenance of the rest stops.
 
Value Collector said:
I

As I said earlier, fuel stations are going to find it hard to scratch out an existence, because.

1, Most charging will be done at home.
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Do you know if all plugs/sockets for charging will be the same for all vehicle manufacturers as I can see issues with multiple plug/socket shapes if every car maker has a unique design. If designs are unique, multiple adaptors will be needed.
 
Tesla have their own, but some of the other manufacturers are working to standardize things, but you can charge your Tesla anywhere, you just need an adaptor which actually comes with the car.
 
Boggo said:
Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere ;)

View attachment 84956
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The interesting part to that photo, is that even if an electric car did charge like that, it would still be achieving a much better fuel economy than a car that used the motor to power a mechanical drive chain directly.

In fact there is already Hybrid cars that basically use that system, they have an onboard petrol engine that is used to charge a battery, the chevy volt is an example. and they get more kilometres per litre of fuel than regular cars.

Also, diesel freight trains use the same system, they burn diesel to make electricity for their electric motors, Gives them more horse power and more range.
 
Dyson, the company that makes Vacuum cleaners and fans has said it will bring out an electric vehicle in 2020.

Interesting times.

 
So
luutzu said:
Man, the taxpayer funded R&D expense account is going to hit the roof.
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What do you mean? which R&D is tax payer funded?
can't fault you for not being an optimist man
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.

Life is better that way,

not to mention I have made a living drinking the the half filled glasses the pessimists have turned their nose at, lol,
 
Value Collector said:
So

What do you mean? which R&D is tax payer funded?
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I'm betting that there's some new gov't subsidy and tax rebate/incentives to get into EV's R&D.

Not saying that under certain situations that kind of incentive aren't good or beneficial. Just to hear that Dyson is getting into the act.. .the cynic in me says they're just milking the tax system, use the fund to focus on a car vacumn cleaner or something.

Heard that in the US there's a tax rebate for buyers of Tesla. Not sure if it still current but a Tesla owner apparently get some $US12k back from their Tesla purchase.

hmmm... what the hell? The average yankee don't have $1K spare in case of emergency, yet the poorer folks who can afford a $180K or so car get a tax rebate on that purchase?

Then there's the free land for Tesla to set up its mega factory, plus hundreds in millions per year in tax subsidies.

When a country like China do these kind of stuff, the gov't actually own the enterprise.
 
luutzu said:
I'm betting that there's some new gov't subsidy and tax rebate/incentives to get into EV's R&D.

Not saying that under certain situations that kind of incentive aren't good or beneficial. Just to hear that Dyson is getting into the act.. .the cynic in me says they're just milking the tax system, use the fund to focus on a car vacumn cleaner or something.

.
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Maybe look for some facts before forming the opinion, I am all for skepticism but cynicism is a curse, so try being a skeptic rather than a cynic.

Heard that in the US there's a tax rebate for buyers of Tesla. Not sure if it still current but a Tesla owner apparently get some $US12k back from their Tesla purchase.

hmmm... what the hell? The average yankee don't have $1K spare in case of emergency, yet the poorer folks who can afford a $180K or so car get a tax rebate on that purchase?
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It's limited to a certain number of cars, its about assisting a new industry get established, and any benefit is dwarfed by the government incentives given to big oil over the last 100years.

but have you been to LA, The air pollution is terrible 1000's of people die and many more suffer health issues due to air pollution, having less cars pumping out poisonous gas helps every one, not just rich folk.

Not to mention that the USA is among the largest carbon emitters, helping reduce carbon emissions should benefit the entire globe.

Then there's the free land for Tesla to set up its mega factory, plus hundreds in millions per year in tax subsidies.

When a country like China do these kind of stuff, the gov't actually own the enterprise
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Are you talking about the loan they repaid with interest and a bonus payment and 7 years before it was due?

Free land? oh you mean that piece of worthless dessert that the state gave up to guarantee a mega factory would be built in their area ensuring they will receive lots of local employment for their citizens at the factory and outside in service industries, while being able to collect incomes taxes from those employees, sounds like a good deal to me.

 
Value Collector said:
Maybe look for some facts before forming the opinion, I am all for skepticism but cynicism is a curse, so try being a skeptic rather than a cynic.



It's limited to a certain number of cars, its about assisting a new industry get established, and any benefit is dwarfed by the government incentives given to big oil over the last 100years.

but have you been to LA, The air pollution is terrible 1000's of people die and many more suffer health issues due to air pollution, having less cars pumping out poisonous gas helps every one, not just rich folk.

Not to mention that the USA is among the largest carbon emitters, helping reduce carbon emissions should benefit the entire globe.



Are you talking about the loan they repaid with interest and a bonus payment and 7 years before it was due?

Free land? oh you mean that piece of worthless dessert that the state gave up to guarantee a mega factory would be built in their area ensuring they will receive lots of local employment for their citizens at the factory and outside in service industries, while being able to collect incomes taxes from those employees, sounds like a good deal to me.

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Musk is telling half-truths about the loan there.

Just a quick google and the American taxpayers didn't exactly "make a profit" on their loan to Tesla. Not by the normal lending practices.

Musk claimed that Us taxpayers make a profit of $US26M.

First of, interest received on loans aren't exactly "profit", it's interest, the cost of money. So interest in and of itself can't be said to be profit unless the interest is way above the market rate... say current rate is 4% but Tesla was loaned at 6%, so the public/lender makes 2% profit on top.

Don't know the detail to really figure out the true profit... but here....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sla-dont-see-eye-to-eye-idUSBRE94M11D20130523

Repaid $452M as last portion of the loan. i.e. That's not the entire loan received.

Loan offered in 2009, repaid about 2013.

$26M "profit" on $452M over 3 years is practically free money.

Assume that the $452M portion is part of a bigger loan... I mean the US put aside some $300B or more to fund the loan and bailouts of US auto industry, from which Tesla got some.

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Yes, other auto makers got loans; other companies also got it too... some even go bankrupt and lost everything. So it is good that Tesla managed to repay it.

But it shouldn't be sold as them being nice and good to the public. That's a bit dishonest.

That and stop with saying you, Musk, putting your own money into Tesla to keep i afloat.
You're an entrepreneur, you're supposed to put up your own money into your company.

What is this, SpaceX where the Pentagon and CIA funded all the rockets and trials?

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Does it sound right for rich people who can afford $180K+ car to be getting a tax rebate?

Maybe if the gov't care so much for the air quality and health of the sick Americans, give those rebates towards healthcare for the sufferer.

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The desert might be worthless when no ultilities and infrastructure are built on it; but it's pretty darn valuable to a company, any company, once all the roads and power and utilities are built to get people to that useless desert housing a roof full of solar panel that generate electricity.

I read a, from memory, BusinessWeek report into Tesla's/Musk pitting one state gov't against another to get the subsidies.

I don't remember reading any guarantee that Tesla would keep hiring X number of American workers. At most, give them 3 years and they'll either automate everything or just ship the jobs overseas to China or Mexico.

They will still get the keep the plant, the subsidies and the roads.. .well the roads the ratepayers still own and will of course need to maintained.

And I just read a few days or weeks ago that Musk is thinking about manufacturing future Teslas in China.

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And no, I'm quite optimistic. I just see way too much PR about private genius and entrepreneurial ability to save the world yet if you look below the surface a bit, it's pretty all funded by the public, most of whom would never get to use what their money was put towards.
 
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