Electric cars?

[luutzu]

So do 300kmh supercars.

What, we don't all go from 0 to 100km in 10 seconds each time we take our cars out?

Sydney siders will be lucky to go from 0 to 30km in an hour during most traffic hours.

 

[luutzu]

I don't think making money on it is their goal, and I don't think it will actually generate revenue, people won't leave their cars there.

Wanna put your money on it? $5 says you'll pay at least $100 in your first year from being too slow back to the SuperCharger.

 

[Smurf1976]

M

on road trips, by the time I have gone to the toilet myself, given my dog a toilet break and some water, bought some lunch etc, I would have easily given the car 25 - 30 mins charge, and that allows about 250 kms of driving.

Much the same here except that I’d never choose a service station as the place for such a break unless there’s absolutely no alternative.

Any sort of roadside park, rest area etc is far more pleasant than a servo. Trouble is that most have no power....

Fixable certainly but another change that’s needed.

 

[Value Collector]

So do 300kmh supercars.

Thats why 99% of people won't buy them, only a few thousand of the roadster will be built, its a very niche market, and more about creating Buzz, and to demonstrate the concept that electric cars can have the highest performance.

 

[Value Collector]

Wanna put your money on it? $5 says you'll pay at least $100 in your first year from being too slow back to the SuperCharger.

I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?

I will probably super charge 10 - 15 times a year Max, and that is only if I did an usually high number of road trips.

 

[Value Collector]

I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?

M

Much the same here except that I’d never choose a service station as the place for such a break unless there’s absolutely no alternative.

Any sort of roadside park, rest area etc is far more pleasant than a servo. Trouble is that most have no power....

Fixable certainly but another change that’s needed.

Thats one of the interesting things with the Tesla Super chargers, they are popping up in areas that aren't your normal Servo, eg The Big banana, The Macadamia Castle, Wineries, etc.

What did you think of the Kettleman Super charger in the video below, More like an Air port lounge than a servo, not to mention take away restaurants within walking distance.



They are definitely trying different things to see what works best.

 

[Value Collector]

Here are just a couple of examples of the spread of the Tesla super charger network, and how they are generally in nice places you wouldn't mind stopping for a break.

On your way to the snow, this one is next to a nice park, cafe and Coles.


Macadamia Castle, on the Sydney to Brisbane run



Port Macquarie, at a winery, seems like a nice place.



Ballarat,



Gundagai, NSW Supercharger Review

 

[Junior]

Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.

If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.

If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.

TESLA/Musk seems to get along well with the Chinese. If there's any concerns around capital, they'll make sure he survives.... imho.

 

[Tisme]

 

[Tisme]

Electric Plane

 

[basilio]

I suggest that the various sites chosen as supercharger sites would have deals with Tesla. It is bringing in traffic that has to hang around for at least 30 minutes . The people will have money. There will be kudos in being an early adopter.

I wonder if these supercharger can be used on other electric cars? Or perhaps extra charge points can be arranged. Would be a shame if only Teslas electric cars can use the facility.

For anyone interested there is a more extensive discussion on thje Tesla supercharger sites on Whirlpool.
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2458533&p=16

 

[sptrawler]

The best way of course is overnight charging because, in fact, current coal fired power stations need to operate 24/7 anyway so one might as well use the juice.

Where did you come up with that fact, as long as the turbine is cooled to a pre determined level, a coal fired unit can be taken off and put back on in time for the morning load.

 

[basilio]

Where did you come up with that fact, as long as the turbine is cooled to a pre determined level, a coal fired unit can be taken off and put back on in time for the morning load.

That statement certainly surprises me. My understanding is by and large coal fired power stations operate as base load power providers on a 24/7 basis with allowances for maintenance.

Smurf do you have any comments on this ?

 

[sptrawler]

That statement certainly surprises me. My understanding is by and large coal fired power stations operate as base load power providers on a 24/7 basis with allowances for maintenance.

Smurf do you have any comments on this ?

Well I may have been dreaming, but I'm sure I was taking coal fired units off the grid, and putting them back on in the morning for 25 years.
But hey, I'll defer to your obvious knowledge of everything regarding power generation, into an interconnected grid.
To me, it just shows how little knowledge, people who make sweeping awe inspiring comments have.
It actually depends on the fuel and dispatch priority of the units available, not whether it burns coal, gas or oil.

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf do you have any comments on this ?

As a generation technology coal is high capital cost but low (in some cases extremely low - you'd be amazed how cheap the Latrobe Valley brown coal stations are to operate) running cost. There's also a cost, for auxiliary fuel (usually oil or gas) to start up as well as additional wear and tear on the plant.

From a purely technical perspective stopping and starting a plant using high grade coal isn't overly difficult. It does cost $ however and that aspect combined with the low running cost but high capital cost means that coal is best suited for economic reasons to continuous operation.

For a plant using low grade coal with a high water content, and Latrobe Valley coal is up to 70% water (so it's water with some coal rather than coal with some water) there are some technical issues with starting up quickly. It's not impossible to do it but in practice not done unless under emergency conditions.

So if we put the CO2 issue to one side and focus purely on the traditional economic aspects then it makes sense to build coal to the extent that we need some form of generation to run constantly. In that role it's cheaper than gas or oil easily. And once it's built it makes sense to run coal plant in preference to oil or gas since it's cheaper to operate.

So coal does have the ability to generate at low marginal cost once it's built. Total cost is higher obviously but for a plant that's already there it doesn't cost much to just put more coal in and run it a bit harder when it would otherwise be under-utilised (eg overnight).

From a total cost perspective it also makes sense to flatten out the load so as to be able to meet as much of the total demand from low cost (coal) plant as possible and to minimise the use of oil and gas.

So it's an economic issue more than a technical one where black coal is concerned.

For other technologies:

Gas or oil - capable of running constantly if needed but the marginal cost of operation is high (but capital costs are lower than with coal). Hence such plant is normally built to meet that part of the load which is intermittent in nature (eg driven by weather or the normal daily cycle of human activity).

Hydro - costs a fortune to build but it's incredibly cheap to run. Hydro plant is capable of changing output incredibly fast, seconds, but in the Australian context in most cases the water resource is quite limited such that the best use (economically) is to install a lot of generating capacity using the relatively limited water resource and use it for peak loads. The generators aren't expensive, it's the dam and civil works that costs serious $, so that's the most economic way to use it. There are some exceptions in Tas where we do have true base load hydro stations - Butlers Gorge, Tarraleah and Wayatinah in particular plus a number of others which go to low load overnight but never to zero (unless due to maintenance) due to the need to keep the water moving - Meadowbank is the most obvious example (Hobart draws 60% of its water supply from Meadowbank's discharge so it can't stop) with Cluny and Repulse also not normally going to zero (but they do go to low output routinely).

How cheap? That's generally confidential information in the context of the competitive National Electricity Market but it was publicly disclosed a few years ago that Hydro Tas has marginal costs of running versus not running of around 0.2 cents per kilowatt hour and it's no secret that the brown coal plants in Vic are similar. That was a few years ago, costs are a bit higher now due to inflation, but it's still incredibly low.

For black coal it depends on the fuel price but we're talking 1.5 - 3.0 cents / kWh for most Australian plants to run versus not run.

For gas it varies but 4 - 10 cents / kWh covers most of them.

Note that those are marginal costs of running versus not running and that total costs are far higher. Cost to build in the first place, cost to pay staff and so on don't change just because the plant is or isn't running (well, not unless you close it outright and lay off the the staff etc).

Also note that those are short term costs which don't include the cost of an eventual refurbishment although that's not directly proportional to output. A plant that's run 20% of the time won't last 4 times as long as one that's run 80% of the time indeed in some cases there would be virtually no difference. Longer running hours are balanced out by having fewer stops and starts causing wear.

There's also efficiency to throw into the mix. Gas turbines in particular suffer huge efficiency losses at low output, at very low output their efficiency is truly shocking, but all plant has an optimum operating point. For coal or gas that's generally somewhere near maximum capacity. For hydro it varies with the technology of a particular plant but for Gordon PS (Tas) it's optimum is about 77% of capacity. Running at 100% loses a few % of efficiency but go down to 10% and it's a pretty big loss (hence why Hydro Tas is currently looking at adding a 4th machine, smaller than the rest, at Gordon specifically to enable better efficiency at low output).

Gas turbines also suffer efficiency losses as the temperature increases. The colder the better.

Then there's the issue of "use it or lose it" generation such as wind, solar and any hydro scheme where the dam is full (which does happen with the smaller ones).

Put all that together and there's a definite advantage in shifting electrical load away from the peaks if possible and in the case of electric vehicles charging them overnight. Helps keep efficiency up, maximises the use of cost or "use it or lose it" generation and doesn't add much to the need to run high cost plant such as oil or gas.

Added to all that there's the original design of the plant itself. What was it built to do? A coal plant can certainly be built to optimise performance for peak load use if that's the intent just as a gas-fired plant can be built to run base load if that's how it's planned to be operated.

Most of the NSW coal-fired plants are pretty good at following load and getting down to low outputs. Getting down to one third of capacity they do easily. In contrast the Vic brown coal plants weren't built with that intention - anything below about 55% of capacity isn't so easy (not impossible but some issues arise).

Newport (Vic) and Torrens Island (SA) both use steam turbines with gas-fired boilers (not gas turbines) but were built to be flexible. Regular starts and stops and operating anywhere from 20% to 100% of capacity they do pretty easily.

Then there's things like Tamar Valley CCGT (Tas), a gas-fired plant built specifically for base load. It operates intermittently as such but wouldn't normally drop below two thirds of capacity when running and is typically stopped and started a few times a year at most. The plus side of that inflexibility is that it's the most efficient plant in the National Electricity Market.

In short - yes coal can stop and start but for economic reasons that's not an ideal situation. Doable but if we can use the power for a worthwhile purpose, instead of drawing that power when demand is high, then it makes massive sense to do so.

 

[sptrawler]

From a purely technical perspective stopping and starting a plant using high grade coal isn't overly difficult. It does cost $ however and that aspect combined with the low running cost but high capital cost means that coal is best suited for economic reasons to continuous operation.
.

It depends what you are paying for the fuel, to run alternative plant.
Or if you have a take or pay contract.lol
Or if the other generators, don't seem to be flexible.
Or if you have to come off because, the private can't.

 

[luutzu]

I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?

I will probably super charge 10 - 15 times a year Max, and that is only if I did an usually high number of road trips.

Alright. Deal. Five bucks and the best rum LiquorLand or Woolies can provide.

So in its first year, if your car incurred $100 or more from overstaying at any Tesla charge station, I win ya.

 

[sptrawler]

Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.

If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.

Hope you're not selling that to your clients, Junior. LOL

 

[basilio]

Great analysis Smurf. On memory I believe you probably gave a similar analaysis previously but it is always invaluable to refresh .

And it does make sense to use surplus base load coal power to charge electric vehicles overnight.