Despair in Gaza

[Tisme]

That's also good satire.

Yea, Israel like to tell itself, and the world, it's a civilised and highly educated country. I guess they claim that because they're a "country of the Jew" and all Jews are smart.

Maybe give some credit to the teachers, friends, education system and opportunities that made possible those "smart Jews" who were born, raised, educated, trained and work outside of Israel all their life.

No they are well educated, deliberately so. From cradle to the grave they immerse themselves in learning....just like us Ozzies ...well a few of us ...ok none of us, except the jews.

 

[luutzu]

Exactly moxjo.

The stated aim of Hamas is the eradication of Israel and the Jews. Peace is an anathema to them, they don't want it. Blind/fallacious support of Hamas is a poisonous and unjustifiable ideological position, as evidenced by the cruelling of logic ans common sense by our resident neomarxist shills.

Did you know that Hamas was created by the Israeli security/intelligence apparatus?

Was created to counter balance the PLO. Then once the PLO became subject of the Israeli - fake opposition - Hamas became a more serious, and real, opposition to the occupation.

I thought people have the right to defend themselves. Apparently not. Arabs are supposed to just have no military to defend themselves, only the good guys do.

 

[luutzu]

No they are well educated, deliberately so. From cradle to the grave they immerse themselves in learning....just like us Ozzies ...well a few of us ...ok none of us, except the jews.

Some Israeli journalist - Gideon Levy [?] - recently said in an interview that this latest massacre in Gaza... the Israeli doesn't give two crap about it. They were busy celebrating Eurovision.

Worldly people that's for sure.

There are plenty of smart, highly intelligent, studious and not-at-all money-centric Jewish people. Some of the harshes and most informed critics of Israel are Jewish. Mostly "self-hating" American Jews.

But for every Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky there's a few Bibi. Marx was a Jewish from Germany right?

 

[Tisme]

Some Israeli journalist - Gideon Levy [?] - recently said in an interview that this latest massacre in Gaza... the Israeli doesn't give two crap about it. They were busy celebrating Eurovision.

Worldly people that's for sure.

There are plenty of smart, highly intelligent, studious and not-at-all money-centric Jewish people. Some of the harshes and most informed critics of Israel are Jewish. Mostly "self-hating" American Jews.

But for every Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky there's a few Bibi. Marx was a Jewish from Germany right?

It's not wealth that rewards Jews, it's arguing FTW that is the important journey.

 

[moXJO]

That version of history is not the one I'm familiar with. And I did listen quite widely from historians.

But either way, shtbags are shtbags. Can't blame one person, or group of people, for the conduct of others.

In the same way, today's war criminals are war criminals and can't be excused because "their people" were victims of war crimes.

Palestine has routinely walked away from negotiations for decades. Now Israel has ultra right in govt they can kiss any peace goodbye.

They tried two wars against Israel. One they lost their land in.
And lets not forget Jordan and Egypt probably own more land than the jews.

Jews latest form of attack is the preemptive strike. Anything that looks like a threat will be nuked beforehand.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing. But there were years and years where peace was on the table. Neither side are victims.
Palestine is backed by its neighbors to a degree. Iran/Syria being the greatest threat. And possibly the major upcoming conflict.

Jews own the world. There won't be any war crime convictions.

 

[Tisme]

Worldly people that's for sure.

You do know that Picts, Saxons and the Scots are at least in part descendants of the Sciti who were Scythian Khazars. Britain was so Jewish the second century the Romans and others called them "Hebrew".

Some say the Khazars converted to Judaism around the 9th century, but others contend they were descendants of lost tribe Hebrews.

 

[luutzu]

Palestine has routinely walked away from negotiations for decades. Now Israel has ultra right in govt they can kiss any peace goodbye.

They tried two wars against Israel. One they lost their land in.
And lets not forget Jordan and Egypt probably own more land than the jews.

Jews latest form of attack is the preemptive strike. Anything that looks like a threat will be nuked beforehand.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing. But there were years and years where peace was on the table. Neither side are victims.
Palestine is backed by its neighbors to a degree. Iran/Syria being the greatest threat. And possibly the major upcoming conflict.

Jews own the world. There won't be any war crime convictions.

There's never been any real "peace talk" or negotiation. It's all just a game played for public consumption. Kinda like the latest move taking the whole of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and called it peace.

The Palestinian lost their land round about 1948. What was left after the UN/US border became occupied territories after 1967/68. What were occupied became annexed as illegal settlements ever since.

As some Israeli politician once said, we'll take the best land in and the water, give them pieces of crap to scavenge on. And if they want to call lit a state, then it's a state. [not quoting literally, but not too far off the original wording].

Then there's some place Israel had put aside as that future Palestinian capital. Not Jerusalem, some literal rubbish tip. Seriously.

Gaza, as quite a few senior diplomats and Western politicians came to it - open air prison; the biggest concentration camp in world history - would not be habitable in around 2020. Not that it's habitable now, what with 95% of its water undrinkable, its only flour mill having been smashed etc.


We can't all pre-emptively strike and take out others people can we? Something illegal and immoral about killing people who you reckon might one day, maybe, harm you.

If we live by that code, most neighbourhood would be pretty empty and burnt down.

--------------

Syria and Iran is a threat how? They'd just go bomb Israel and the West?

Until only a few years ago, Syria was part of the US secret prison programme. They got onto the bad list because they don't want the Saudi and UAE [?] piping the gaslines on their land into Europe. Russia wouldn't allow it.

Iran did agree to freeze its nuclear program and trade with the US/EU. But it was a "bad deal" even though the EU is desperately trying to save it and not get sanctioned by the US too.

Don't take these to mean that I defend all the actions of this or that country. Just pointing out certain facts.

 

[luutzu]

You do know that Picts, Saxons and the Scots are at least in part descendants of the Sciti who were Scythian Khazars. Britain was so Jewish the second century the Romans and others called them "Hebrew".

Some say the Khazars converted to Judaism around the 9th century, but others contend they were descendants of lost tribe Hebrews.

I did not know that.

All I know is that we all descend from Adam and his spare rib so should treat each other as brothers or "cous", as in cousins.

 

[wayneL]

Did you know that Hamas was created by the Israeli security/intelligence apparatus?

Was created to counter balance the PLO. Then once the PLO became subject of the Israeli - fake opposition - Hamas became a more serious, and real, opposition to the occupation.

I thought people have the right to defend themselves. Apparently not. Arabs are supposed to just have no military to defend themselves, only the good guys do.

Not quite Grasshopper. It's true that Israel did not resist it's formation, but it is not true that Mossad created it.

 

[moXJO]

.


We can't all pre-emptively strike and take out others people can we? Something illegal and immoral about killing people who you reckon might one day, maybe, harm you.

If we live by that code, most neighbourhood would be pretty empty and burnt down.

--------------

Syria and Iran is a threat how? They'd just go bomb Israel and the West?

Until only a few years ago, Syria was part of the US secret prison programme. They got onto the bad list because they don't want the Saudi and UAE [?] piping the gaslines on their land into Europe. Russia wouldn't allow it.

Iran did agree to freeze its nuclear program and trade with the US/EU. But it was a "bad deal" even though the EU is desperately trying to save it and not get sanctioned by the US too.

Don't take these to mean that I defend all the actions of this or that country. Just pointing out certain facts.

Iran isn't a victim, or innocent party. You can paint pictures either way but there is no "right" from any sides. The notion of "fair" is for fairytales. If you are surrounded by enemies with track records of starting wars with you, then you ain't pulling punches.

Israel is now ultra right. No backing down or forgiveness now.

Imo we will see more conflict if not war. The main reason is technology is advancing. Drones are a real threat to Israel and the world.

 

[luutzu]

Not quite Grasshopper. It's true that Israel did not resist it's formation, but it is not true that Mossad created it.

Pretty sure I heard it accurately that they got a hand in setting it up.

 

[luutzu]

Iran isn't a victim, or innocent party. You can paint pictures either way but there is no "right" from any sides. The notion of "fair" is for fairytales. If you are surrounded by enemies with track records of starting wars with you, then you ain't pulling punches.

Israel is now ultra right. No backing down or forgiveness now.

Imo we will see more conflict if not war. The main reason is technology is advancing. Drones are a real threat to Israel and the world.

There is a right and a wrong. There's that moral law, natural law and sense of right and wrong. Then there's International Law.

But I do agree in what you are implying in that no country is ever right or wrong all the time. All countries were established out of violence and, to a certain extend, genocide. So in that sense, no country is ever "peaceful" or innocent.

To problem with a settler-colonial state like Israel and its various admin is that they figured they can do violence and genocide, then a few decades later say "sorry" and that's that.

While that might very well be true, they've taken way too long and dragged this imperialist scheme on for far too much it's not going as it should. That is, instead of getting rid of all Palestinians in one or two go, they instead set up open air prisons and hope that those whose opinions matter look the other way or being lied to well enough they don't see things for what they are but what they're told.

So it's either they don't know how to do evil well, as Machiavelli would say... Or they find it hard to completely wipe out an entire population. Something about WWII might make that look really, really bad.

That or these open air prisons are perfect live subject for weapons programmes and those high-tech R&D security and surveillance industry.

ANd in case you think i make these up, look up weapons and arms industry expos.

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Yea, Israel is ultra-right. Saw a few docus on it... Not a place I'd want to live in.

Israel is pretty save from its neighbours. That's what a special relationship with the US gets you - security guarantee. That and a few dozen nukes you could use to bring down the temple if you're ever attacked.

Some former Israeli general, back in the 60s was saying that in 1968 Israel had a choice: security or expansion. Its leadership chose expansion over security.

Finkelstein quotes some (honest) Israeli historian as saying that throughout all of Israel's history, all of its wars are wars of choice and not of necessity. With the exemption of, maybe, the first war of 1948 where they expelled the Palestinian... maybe.

 

[wayneL]

Watch it to the end Grasshoppers, go on, I dare you

 

[moXJO]

Watch it to the end Grasshoppers, go on, I dare you

Sounds a lot more plausible then the hamas story.

 

[Macquack]

I dared to watch it and survived. What a scoop Ironside, a Jewish Australian former Israeli Defence Force soldier come promoter and his Arab commercial partner.

Just one question, is everybody that dares question the killing of innocent people, a leftist radical?

 

[grah33]

The truth is that Hamas, a terrorist organization that seeks the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews everywhere, deliberately caused over 60 of its own people to get killed..."

The thing is, they have lived there for a long time (the Palestinians), and now they don't have basic human rights and are watching Israel build more and more settlements (ie . progressively getting conquered), so that is why they are fighting and sending rockets (to stop themselves from being completely conquered). The hatred they have, although unkind and not good, is a fairly natural response when one nation gets conquered by another. If the Chinese were progressively conquering this land , I'm sure many Australians would be offended.

Nations and powerful people decide on borders, but that can never override reality. Whoever has been living there, that is who is entitled to be there, who must have full human rights. The international world know that, so keep talking (but doing nothing) about a 2 state solution. Correct me If i'm wrong, but in Israel you have to be Jewish to be a citizen (hardly democracy).

(limited knowledge on this topic, but anyway...)

 

[SirRumpole]

Correct me If i'm wrong, but in Israel you have to be Jewish to be a citizen (hardly democracy).

Not necessarily, you can be naturalised subject to certain conditions (Jewishness is not mentioned as essential.

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/State/Pages/Acquisition of Israeli Nationality.aspx

 

[luutzu]

Watch it to the end Grasshoppers, go on, I dare you

An Arab and a Jew talking about how bad Arabs can be... that's pretty impressive. But you'd need an American to give it more weight though.

Here's some UN human rights guy summing up what happened. Probably more objective.

- 58 protesters dead, including 12 children.
- unarmed, non-violent shot with live ammunition in the back, the chest, the head, limbs.
- Gaza under occupation, living in filth from birth to death. etc. etc.

 

[luutzu]

Not necessarily, you can be naturalised subject to certain conditions (Jewishness is not mentioned as essential.

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/State/Pages/Acquisition of Israeli Nationality.aspx

Pretty sure non-Jewish people are not allowed to be naturalised citizen of Israel.

But people of Jewish blood can all come on in. They're given generous loans that will be forgiven if they live there over x years.

Though only fair-skin, "European" Jews. The black-skinned Jews from parts of Africa are apparently not genuine Jewish people.

The Arab Israeli do have Israeli citizenship. But it's one of those "separate but equal" kind of thing.

Heard there are very many creative ways they make life very difficult for the non-Jewish Israelis.

E.g. Landlord and other tenants in a building are permitted to not allow other tenant from living among them. That's just democratic you might think. It also make it impossible for non-Jew renting or buying a place because their neighbours can just say no.

Then those living in Jerusalem and haven't been kicked out yet... they got a special card with special priviledges. Like if they married another Palestinian from the West Bank then they'd have to move there; if they travel or move away for x months, they'd lose the right to live in their home and will have to vacate for other Jewish people.

They don't kid around when they say it's a Jewish State.

 

[SirRumpole]

Pretty sure non-Jewish people are not allowed to be naturalised citizen of Israel.

"
Arab citizens of Israel[3] or Arab Israelis are Israeli citizens, whose primary language or linguistic heritage is Arabic. Many identify as Palestinian and commonly self-designate themselves as Palestinian citizens of Israel or Israeli Palestinians.[4][5] The traditional vernacular of most Arab citizens, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. Most Arab citizens of Israel are functionally bilingual, their second language being Modern Hebrew. By religious affiliation, most are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam. There is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations as well as the Druze, among other religious communities.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel