Despair in Gaza

[Triathlete]

As long as I'm inside my own back yard I can come right up to my fence if I want without being threatened with violence. A border is a border, not X metres away from it.

Not when you have a terrorist group like Hamas getting involved.. changes the peaceful protest in my view.....just my own opinion though...

 

[Triathlete]

As long as I'm inside my own back yard I can come right up to my fence if I want without being threatened with violence. A border is a border, not X metres away from it.

The truth is that Hamas, a terrorist organization that seeks the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews everywhere, deliberately caused over 60 of its own people to get killed..."

 

[wayneL]

So whadaya reckon would happen if the israelis lay down their weapons?

 

[SirRumpole]

So whadaya reckon would happen if the israelis lay down their weapons?

They won't do that, but maybe they shouldn't just shoot people who are on the opposite side of the fence.

 

[Tisme]

As long as I'm inside my own back yard I can come right up to my fence if I want without being threatened with violence. A border is a border, not X metres away from it.

But if your neighbour saw you were armed with and ready to fence line deploy on his family; boondies, grenades, pipe bombs, spears, etc I have a feeling he might retaliate while waiting for the police to arrive and use extreme force to subdue you.

 

[SirRumpole]

But if your neighbour saw you were armed with and ready to fence line deploy on his family; boondies, grenades, pipe bombs, spears, etc I have a feeling he might retaliate while waiting for the police to arrive and use extreme force to subdue you.

Armed with rocks vs assualt rifles ? How far can people throw rocks ?

There is such a thing as proportional force.

 

[luutzu]

The truth is that Hamas, a terrorist organization that seeks the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews everywhere, deliberately caused over 60 of its own people to get killed..."

Blaming Hamas is just that, blame.

I saw interviews with Norman Finkelstein - an American Jew himself, and probably the world's foremost historian on the Israeli/Palestine issue... He quoted a wikiLeak where one of Israel's general/minister was saying that "we don't do Gandhi well". i.e. the IDF only have one weapon they care to use, and that weapon need pretexts.

That's why Israel had some Malaysian linked to Hamas assassinated a week or two in to the protest. They also tried to take out a few Hamas leaders in Gaza. And the shooting of protesters... all to provoke a violent response.

No rockets were fired. No guns were shot back. Just rock slinging youths and burning tyres... a few kites flown. The burning of tyres are meant to provide a smoke screen against snipers.

Some reports put the recent stop in protest due to Israel passing a message to the Egyptian that if protests continue they will target Hamas leaders, hence it stop.

That's just propaganda to me. For one thing, protests were always on a Friday/Weekend. It spreads out across a few sites with groups of some 40,000 people coming and going. That doesn't sound like a forced death march to the fence.

 

[luutzu]

But if your neighbour saw you were armed with and ready to fence line deploy on his family; boondies, grenades, pipe bombs, spears, etc I have a feeling he might retaliate while waiting for the police to arrive and use extreme force to subdue you.

Rumpole wouldn't get the chance to do any of that. The moment his neighbour see him with "something dangerous" - like a butter knife during breakfast - they'd droned him already.

 

[Tisme]

Armed with rocks vs assualt rifles ? How far can people throw rocks ?

There is such a thing as proportional force.

I'm guessing they don't throw stones unless there is a degree of certainty ?

“hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and enter the Israel. It said the crowd threw explosives, firebombs and rocks, and that troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd......

..............Hamas acknowledged that five of its terrorists were among the fatalities after the first Friday demonstration, but has since refrained for acknowledging whether its men are among the dead. Israel has identified other fatalities as members of terrorist groups............

..............The Israeli army says it mainly uses less-lethal means, as well as pinpoint fire against chief instigators. It says its sharpshooters target only those who attack IDF soldiers with stones and Molotov cocktails, actively try to damage the security fence, or attempt to place improvised explosive devices along the security fence that could later be used in attacks against Israeli patrols.

Israel envoy to the United Nations Danny Danon addresses the General Assembly prior to a vote on Jerusalem, on December 21, 2017, at UN Headquarters in New York. (AFP/Eduardo Munoz Alvarez)
Danon on Thursday also accused Hamas of using innocents as “human shields.”

 

[SirRumpole]

I'm guessing they don't throw stones unless there is a degree of certainty ?

Propaganda on both sides.

It would seem a reasonable solution to have a DMZ patrolled by the UN between both sides.

 

[luutzu]

I'm guessing they don't throw stones unless there is a degree of certainty ?

https://www.theonion.com/idf-soldier-recounts-harrowing-heroic-war-story-of-kil-1826048745


IDF Soldier Recounts Harrowing, Heroic War Story Of Killing 8-Month-Old Child
Tuesday 1:26pm

• 

JERUSALEM—Describing the terrifying yet valiant experience to his fellow battalion members, Israel Defense Forces soldier Yossi Saadon recounted Tuesday his harrowing, heroic war story of killing an 8-month-old Palestinian child during a violent attack against protesters. “It was a heart-pounding experience—there was smoke and gunfire all around me, and I made a split-second decision to hurl that canister of tear gas at the encroaching infant cradled in her father’s arms,” said Saadon to the group of awed soldiers, describing the chills that went up and down his spine as he realized that all he had was his M16 assault rifle and some tear gas to defend himself against the unarmed Palestinian family standing only dozens of yards away. “I could see the whites of the baby’s eyes and hear her terrifying cries, and I knew it was either her or me. And this wasn’t some newborn infant, you know? This was a baby who could probably sit up independently. I was scared, but I acted quickly to throw that tear gas at her and her older sister. And who knows how many lives I saved when I shot the women trying to help her?” At press time, Saadon’s battalion commander informed him that he was submitting his name for the Medal of Valor, the IDF’s highest honor.

 

[Tisme]

https://www.theonion.com/idf-soldier-recounts-harrowing-heroic-war-story-of-kil-1826048745


IDF Soldier Recounts Harrowing, Heroic War Story Of Killing 8-Month-Old Child
T.

War is a cluster f### in any event. We would have to be pretty naive to think inhabitants won't get caught up in the tragedy. At one stage women and children were avoided by protocol, but these days they are delivery systems for bombs, decoys, etc, some even combat soldiers

 

[luutzu]

War is a cluster f### in any event. We would have to be pretty naive to think inhabitants won't get caught up in the tragedy. At one stage women and children were avoided by protocol, but these days they are delivery systems for bombs, decoys, etc, some even combat soldiers

What's happening in Israel/Palestine isn't a war. It's an occupation.

You can't call it war if one side have all the weapons, controls every aspect of the other side's life and economy.

 

[SirRumpole]

IDF Soldier Recounts Harrowing, Heroic War Story Of Killing 8-Month-Old Child

I think this may be an example of fake news.

 

[luutzu]

I think this may be an example of fake news.

Satire.

But an 8-month old child did died from tear-gas inhalation though. The family turn up to protest, standing far back from the fence etc. Same with those medics and doctors... they stood behind the crowd, only rushing in to retrieve victims but were picked at anyway.


Another headline read: Investigators spokes to Trump Jr. and found that he have no knowledge.

 

[Tisme]

What's happening in Israel/Palestine isn't a war. It's an occupation.

You can't call it war if one side have all the weapons, controls every aspect of the other side's life and economy.

It's a war between an highly educated nation reclaiming its antiquitous birthright against johnny cum lately Arabs.

 

[luutzu]

It's a war between an highly educated nation reclaiming its antiquitous birthright against johnny cum lately Arabs.

That's also good satire.

Yea, Israel like to tell itself, and the world, it's a civilised and highly educated country. I guess they claim that because they're a "country of the Jew" and all Jews are smart.

Maybe give some credit to the teachers, friends, education system and opportunities that made possible those "smart Jews" who were born, raised, educated, trained and work outside of Israel all their life.

 

[moXJO]

If another group of people comes into your country and set about redrawing the map, expelling your people... you'd probably want them out too.

But the reality is that Israel have a lot of money and weapons, receives a few billions a year in US military aids; God knows how much more from wealthy Jewish believers around the world; who knows how much more from Evangelical Christians.

That and they have nukes. You don't mess with countries that have nukes.

So the idea that the Arabs are all united and want to drive the Israelis into the sea (hence the need to shoot innocent Palestinians and for Uncle Sam to take out Iran )... That's just nonsense.

It's been proven nonsensical since at least the 1968 war.

In that war, as in all lawn mowing exercise and other need to protect themselves... Israel was not defending itself against the Arabs. Historical documents etc. have shown that Israel was pulling its "Greater Israel" strategy. i.e. take more of Syria and Lebanon, take more of Jordan and completely take over the Sinai Peninsular.

They went ahead thinking they will win because they perceive the Arabs as disunified, weak and weren't prepared.

Egypt's Sadat [?] warned them to leave the Sinai Peninsular alone. He was willing to sacrifice Gaza etc. But nope. Kissinger permit the Israeli to go ahead, figuring they'll at least expand to that rive and the sea God promises.

They kinda got pushed back, the oil embargo hurt the US and, from memory, the yank tell them to go back home, again.

But that (mis)adventure got reinterpreted and it was the brave Israeli standing up against the Arabs who try to wipe them off the map.

Though after that war, US planners begin to give serious thought to Israel being another one of its land-based aircraft carrier.

Before the 68 war, US presidents and politicians only pay lip service to Israel being a friend. It was done mostly to please the Evangelical base who like the Jews having all the promised land so that Jesus can come back and kill everybody.

But after the war the US figured they too could play that Jews vs Arab card. Diversity their vassal state beyond Saudi Arabia and the Shah in Iran. Just in case a few Arabs rises up, you can always arm the Jews and tell the world it's one of those Jews/Arab animosity.

But with the widespead alternative news sources, a less religious Jewish/American generation who don't really identified themselves with whatever Israeli do being God's way. Soon enough the American public will let it be known that they are indifferent to Israel being a Jewish state... then the Yank will tell Knesset to cut out the racist crap and get a Nobel Peace prize or two.

Palestinians are shtbags.
They basically started the war back in 60s 70s by killing Christians in Lebanon. They also massacred Christian forces in Lebanon. The ain't no saints.

I had a Christian Lebanese friend (who was like a second father to me) who was in that war. He said the Palestinians had no tolerance, caused trouble and there would never be peace.

When they had ceasefires in place on the Israel/Palestinian border, the buildings were that close, that they would tie knives to long poles and try to stab one another.
Palestinians are born in hatred, teach hatred in their schools and think its their right to commit violence against everyone they deem foes.

I don't have any pity for them.

 

[wayneL]

Exactly moxjo.

The stated aim of Hamas is the eradication of Israel and the Jews. Peace is an anathema to them, they don't want it. Blind/fallacious support of Hamas is a poisonous and unjustifiable ideological position, as evidenced by the cruelling of logic ans common sense by our resident neomarxist shills.

 

[luutzu]

Palestinians are shtbags.
They basically started the war back in 60s 70s by killing Christians in Lebanon. They also massacred Christian forces in Lebanon. The ain't no saints.

I had a Christian Lebanese friend (who was like a second father to me) who was in that war. He said the Palestinians had no tolerance, caused trouble and there would never be peace.

When they had ceasefires in place on the Israel/Palestinian border, the buildings were that close, that they would tie knives to long poles and try to stab one another.
Palestinians are born in hatred, teach hatred in their schools and think its their right to commit violence against everyone they deem foes.

I don't have any pity for them.

That version of history is not the one I'm familiar with. And I did listen quite widely from historians.

But either way, shtbags are shtbags. Can't blame one person, or group of people, for the conduct of others.

In the same way, today's war criminals are war criminals and can't be excused because "their people" were victims of war crimes.