David Hicks protests

[porkpie324]

I would suggest that Hicks along with all the accused be given the same opportunity as a direct forefather of mine who was arrested tried and sentenced to transportation on the first fleet to reach Botany Bay for the grave crime of stealing yes 'porkpies' on 3 occasions, I dread to think of the treatment he was given not to mention the trial. But on reaching the end of the world, after serving his sentance he made himself a law biding citizen and prospered and made this country into a land of what we can be proud of. I hope he's not turning in his grave thinking of the dropout flakey lot whinging on this thread going by some of the posts. porkpie

 

[greggy]

I would suggest that Hicks along with all the accused be given the same opportunity as a direct forefather of mine who was arrested tried and sentenced to transportation on the first fleet to reach Botany Bay for the grave crime of stealing yes 'porkpies' on 3 occasions, I dread to think of the treatment he was given not to mention the trial. But on reaching the end of the world, after serving his sentance he made himself a law biding citizen and prospered and made this country into a land of what we can be proud of. I hope he's not turning in his grave thinking of the dropout flakey lot whinging on this thread going by some of the posts. porkpie

Well you've left me speechless here...I hope the "porkpies" were tasty enough otherwise it would been all for nothing.
DYOR

 

[happytown]

re retrospective laws,

there is no absolute prohibition in aust against retrospectivity in laws

the high court does have a particular abhorrence, however, when, in this country, retrospectivity is applied to criminal law - due to the sanctions applicable, such as the possible loss of liberty to an individual who has undertaken an activity, that at the time of undertaking was legal, only to find out subsequently that the aforementioned activity is now deemed illegal at the time of undertaking

understanding that the hicks issue more closely resembles criminal law and recognising high court's abhorrence above, nonetheless in other areas of aust law, including for example taxation law, provided the respective parliament has made the intention of retrospectivity unmistakably clear, retropsectivity in and of itself will be no bar to a law's validity

having said that, and more closely resembling this thread, the time taken thus far, including the reliability of witnesses memory this far down the road, the alleged coercion including alleged torture metered out, the metamorphic nature of the charges laid, and the apparent absence of the fundamental cornerstone 'innocent until proven guilty' leads this little black duck to conclude that contempt of all those involved is warranted, at the very least

however this little balck duck's contempt, short of anything else, assists not, someone in david hicks position

that is where my intention at the upcoming election assumes a greater import

cheers

 

[2020hindsight]

transportation on the first fleet ..for the grave crime of stealing yes 'porkpies' on 3 occasions, I dread to think of the treatment he was given not to mention the trial.

Mate you'd dread to think of the treatment he'd get in Guantanamo as well (assuming the time warp is on) - in these brainwashing centres, they exploit peoples' weaknesses - for instance your great-great etc etc grandad would have been denied porkpies until he confessed to a damned sight more than eating stolen pies. food for thought. (or is it "food for your thoughts"?)

re retrospective laws, ... that is where my intention at the upcoming election assumes a greater import

spot on.

 

[2020hindsight]

Jese it was hard to find a sober cop during the Rum Rebellion!
...
not that anyone minded, they were all pis*ed as well.
ahh - they were the days - even the porkpies had a nip of rum

completely off the thread, but has anyone every heard reference to the ole reliable "trificta of charges" in local police matters? - like fabricated resist arrest etc. Orwell's 1984 (Big Brother) was probably about 25 years out - published in 1949.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell .
Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903[1][2] – 21 January 1950), better known by the pen name George Orwell, was a British author and journalist.
Orwell is among the most widely admired English-language essayists of the 20th century. He is best known for two novels critical of fascism, communism and totalitarianism written and published towards the end of his life: Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four.

The Road to Wigan Pier. In early 1936, Orwell was commissioned by Victor Gollancz of the Left Book Club to write an account of poverty among the working class in the depressed areas of northern England, which appeared in 1937 as The Road to Wigan Pier. The first half of the book is a social documentary of his investigative touring in Lancashire and Yorkshire, beginning with an evocative description of work in the coal mines. The second half of the book, a long essay in which Orwell recounts his personal upbringing and development of political conscience, has a very strong denunciation of what he saw as irresponsible elements of the left. Gollancz feared that the second half would offend Left Book Club readers, and inserted a mollifying preface to the book while Orwell was in Spain.

Spanish Civil War and Homage to Catalonia. In December 1936, Orwell went to Spain to fight for the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War against Francisco Franco's Nationalist uprising. Although he travelled along with his wife to Spain, he became part of the Independent Labour Party contingent, a group of some twenty-five Britons who joined the militia of the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM), a revolutionary socialist party with which the ILP was allied. The POUM, along with the radical wing of the anarcho-syndicalist CNT (the dominant force on the left in Catalonia), believed that Franco could be defeated only if the working class in the Republic overthrew capitalism ”” a position fundamentally at odds with that of the Spanish Communist Party and its allies, which (backed by Soviet arms and aid) argued for a coalition with bourgeois parties to defeat the Nationalists. In the months after July 1936 there was a profound social revolution in Catalonia, Aragon and other areas where the CNT was particularly strong. Orwell sympathetically describes the egalitarian spirit of revolutionary Barcelona when he arrived in Homage to Catalonia.

By his own admission, Orwell joined the POUM rather than the Communist-run International Brigades by chance ”” but his experiences, in particular his narrow escape from the communist suppression of the POUM in June 1937, made him sympathetic towards the POUM and turned him into a lifelong anti-Stalinist.

During his military service, Orwell was shot through the neck and nearly killed. He wrote in Homage to Catalonia that people frequently told him he was lucky to survive, but that he personally thought "it would be even luckier not to be hit at all"
...
In 1941 Orwell took a job at the BBC Eastern Service, mostly working on programs to gain Indian and East Asian support for the United Kingdom's war efforts. He was well aware that he was engaged in "propaganda", and wrote that he felt like "an orange that's been trodden on by a very dirty boot".

The wartime "Ministry of Information", who was based at Senate House University of London, was the inspiration for the "Ministry of Truth" in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

sheesh - hate to think what would happen to George Orwell - if he were captured today !!! - by the Yanks - OR by Hitler for that matter lol.

 

[porkpie324]

Guantanamo Bay would be a breeze, you imagine being imprisoned on a stinking hulk on the thames waiting for a one way passage to the end of the world. Then to land on some mossie infested beach 9 months later. Guantanamo is to good for the likes of Hicks and the like, leave them where they are and forget them. porkpie

 

[wayneL]

Guantanamo Bay would be a breeze, you imagine being imprisoned on a stinking hulk on the thames waiting for a one way passage to the end of the world. Then to land on some mossie infested beach 9 months later. Guantanamo is to good for the likes of Hicks and the like, leave them where they are and forget them. porkpie

1/ Be careful what you wish for

2/ Beware of the law of unintended consequences

 

[nizar]

Guantanamo is to good for the likes of Hicks and the like, leave them where they are and forget them. porkpie

Every1s entitled to an opinion but thats a bit HARSH !

 

[2020hindsight]

strictly off the topic of Hicks, but what the heck - it's still a current phenomenon that most of us I'm sure would have "felt" before. For a start, there are 50 odd cameras monitoring Sydney CBD, - if you spit in the gutter , there's a fair chance that you'll be caught on film - as for stealing a po... - no won't go there . (gotta feeling my distant rels preferred stealing meat pies )

Influence on the English language.. Some of Nineteen Eighty-Four's lexicon has entered into the English language.

Orwell expounded on the importance of honest and clear language (and, conversely, on how misleading and vague language can be a tool of political manipulation) in his 1946 essay Politics and the English Language. The language of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four is Newspeak: a thoroughly politicized and obfuscatory language designed to make coherent thought impossible by limiting acceptable word choices.

Another phrase is 'Big Brother', or 'Big Brother is watching you'. Today, security cameras are often thought to be modern society's big brother. The current television reality show Big Brother carries that title because of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

The phrase 'thought police' is also derived from Nineteen Eighty-Four, and might be used to refer to any alleged violation of the right to the free expression of opinion. It is particularly used in contexts where free expression is proclaimed and expected to exist.

Variations of the slogan "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", from Animal Farm, are sometimes used to satirise situations where equality exists in theory and rhetoric but not in practice. For example, an allegation that rich people are treated more leniently by the courts despite legal equality before the law might be summarised as "all criminals are equal, but some are more equal than others". This appears to echo the phrase Primus inter pares - the Latin for "First Among Equals", which is usually applied to the head of a democratic state.

Although the origins of the term are debatable, Orwell may have been the first to use the term cold war. He used it in an essay titled "You and the Atomic Bomb" on October 19, 1945 in Tribune, he wrote: "We may be heading not for general breakdown but for an epoch as horribly stable as the slave empires of antiquity. James Burnham's theory has been much discussed, but few people have yet considered its ideological implications ”” this is, the kind of world-view, the kind of beliefs, and the social structure that would probably prevail in a State which was at once unconquerable and in a permanent state of 'cold war' with its neighbors."

 

[petervan]

I'm sure porkpie can look his own son in the eyes and wish that happens to him if he's o/s and gets arrested.

 

[2020hindsight]

since Hicks apparently spent some time with KLA in Kosovo - this might give some possibilities of what he was doing. Not meaning to take sides here, just pointing out that Yugoslavia under MiloÅ¡ević was a bit of a mess (inherited from history including the likes of Tito and Milosevic), and KLA only surfaced in 1996 - after massacre of Bosnian Moslems, and arguably almost as a last resort. The KLA ended up fighting on the same side as NATO, for what it's worth. Hicks may have even waved to US airplanes going overhead ?? - pure speculation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

...In 1912 the Serbian army took back control over Kosovo from Turkey .... .hence the current Balkan issues between the Serbs and (Moslem) Albanians in Kosovo.....

[Serbs made up] 10.9% of population in 1991.. in 1979 the average per capita income was $795.

Kosovo under Serbian rule (1990–1996). Slobodan MiloÅ¡ević….political changes were ratified in a 5 July 1990 referendum across the entire republic of Serbia, including Kosovo; although most Albanians boycotted it, the result was a foregone conclusion given the much greater population of Serbia proper.....

The impact on Kosovo was drastic. The abolition of its autonomy ..its assembly and government being formally disbanded. .....The only Albanian-language newspaper, Rilindja, was banned and TV and radio broadcasts in Albanian ceased. .. Pristina University, seen as a hotbed of Albanian nationalism, was purged: 800 lecturers at Pristina University were sacked and 22,500 of the 23,000 students expelled. Some 40,000 Yugoslav troops and police replaced the original Albanian-run security forces. A punitive regime was imposed that was harshly condemned as a "police state". Poverty and unemployment reached catastrophic levels, with about 80% of Kosovo's population becoming unemployed…..

The slide to war (1996–1998). ...increasing frustration among the Albanian population of Kosovo. The status of Kosovo was not addressed by the 1995 Dayton Accords which had ended the war in Bosnia, and Rugova's pleas for a United Nations peacekeeping force for Kosovo had fallen on deaf ears.

Continuing Serbian repression had radicalised many Albanians, some of whom decided that only armed resistance.. etc. On April 22, 1996, four attacks on Serbian civilians and security personnel were carried out virtually simultaneously in several parts of Kosovo. A hitherto unknown organization calling itself the "Kosovo Liberation Army" (KLA) subsequently claimed responsibility. The nature of the KLA was at first highly mysterious. In fact it was initially a small, mainly clan-based but not very well organised group of radicalised Albanians, many of whom came from the Drenica region of western Kosovo. The KLA at this stage consisted mainly of local farmers and displaced and unemployed workers.

...Most Albanians saw the KLA as legitimate "freedom fighters" whilst the Yugoslav government called them terrorists attacking police and (Serbian) civilians. Although the US envoy Robert Gelbard referred to the KLA as terrorists, he later admitted that they were never legally classified as a terrorist organisation by the US government. [6] [7] [8] Shortly after making his claims that the KLA were terrorists, Robert Gelbard was removed from his position as special envoy to Kosovo.

...declarations from European powers demanding that Serbia solve the problem in Kosovo. …..All of a sudden, KLA attacks intensified, … ..

Despite some accusations of summary executions and killings of civilians, condemnations from Western capitals were not as voluble as they would become later, so Serb police went straight after Jashari and his followers in the village of Donje Prekaz. A massive firefight at the Jashari compound led to the deaths of 60 Albanians, of which eighteen were women and ten were children under the age of sixteen[11]. This March 5 event caused massive condemnation out of Western capitals, including Madeleine Albright's declaration that "this crisis is not an internal affair of the FRY". The KLA had their security guarantee and all bets were off.

On the 24th of March, Serbian forces surrounded the village of Glodjane, in the Dukagjin operational zone, and attempted to do to the Haradinaj family exactly what they had done to the Jasharis; wipe them out, down to the last child[12],[13]. Despite their use of helicopter gunships, and a firefight that lasted until nightfall, the Serbian forces were thwarted in their attempts. ..

...During this time, the Yugoslav President Milosevic made an arrangement with Boris Yeltsin of Russia to stop offensive operations and prepare for talks with the Albanians, ....Meanwhile, Richard Holbrooke showed up and had his picture taken with the KLA. This confirmed to the KLA and its supporters, and to observers in general that the US was decisively backing the KLA.

Through June and into mid July, the KLA maintained its advance.
...These offensives led to talk of a new Srebrenica Massacre possibly taking place. During the late August offensive, there were reports of men separated from a group of prisoners in central Kosovo. .....the threats [by international community] intensified once again but a galvanising event was needed. They got it on September 28 when the mutilated corpses of a family were discovered outside the village of Gornje Obrinje; the bloody doll from there became the rallying image for the ensuing war.

....October 25, 1998. A large contingent of unarmed OSCE peace monitors (officially known as verifiers) moved into Kosovo. Their inadequacy was evident from the start. They were nicknamed the "clockwork oranges" in reference to their brightly coloured vehicles (in English, a "clockwork orange" signifies a useless object.)

...KLA attacks and Serbian reprisals continued throughout the winter of 1998–1999, culminating on January 15, 1999 with the Racak incident. The incident was immediately (before the investigation) condemned as a massacre by the Western countries and the United Nations Security Council, and later became the basis of one of the charges of war crimes leveled against MiloÅ¡ević and his top officials. The details of what happened at Racak are still controversial. ...

NATO issued a statement announcing that it was prepared to launch air strikes against Yugoslav targets "to compel compliance with the demands of the international community and [to achieve] a political settlement". While this was most obviously a threat to the MiloÅ¡ević government, it also included a coded threat to the Albanians: any decision would depend on the "position and actions of the Kosovo Albanian leadership and all Kosovo Albanian armed elements in and around Kosovo." In effect, NATO was saying to the Serbs "make peace or we'll bomb you" and to the Albanians "make peace or we'll abandon you to the Serbs." ....

..The tilting of NATO towards the KLA organisation is chronicled in the BBC Television "MORAL COMBAT : NATO AT WAR" program. This happened despite the fact that General Klaus Naumann (Chairman of NATO Military Committee) stated that Ambassador Walker stated in the NAC (North Atlantic Council) that the majority of violations was caused by the KLA.

…...... MiloÅ¡ević had decided to call NATO's bluff …., believing that the alliance would either not make good on its threat or would do no more than launch a few pinprick raids that could easily be absorbed. Perhaps most fundamentally, MiloÅ¡ević appears to have calculated that he had more to lose by making peace than waging war ”” although the KLA threat had not yet been eliminated, its defeat was nonetheless just a matter of time, to his mind, in the face of the far more powerful Serbian and Yugoslav security forces.

Critics of the Kosovo war have claimed that the Serbian refusal was prompted by unacceptably broad terms in the access rights proposed for the NATO peacekeeping , etc
….
….NATO's bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 11, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships and submarines. The United States was, inevitably, the dominant member of the coalition against Serbia, although all of the NATO members were involved to some degree ”” even Greece, despite publicly opposing the war. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions. For the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) it was the first time it had participated in a conflict since World War II; two German Tornado pilots became the first prisoners of war in this conflict on 27 March 1999. ........ Propaganda terms "humanitarian bombing" and "humanitarian war" were employed by the politicians.

….. By April, the United Nations was reporting that 850,000 people ”” the vast majority of them Albanians ”” had fled their homes.

The cause of the refugee exodus has been the subject of considerable controversy, not least because it formed the basis of United Nations war crimes charges against Slobodan MiloÅ¡ević and other officials responsible for directing the Kosovo conflict. The Yugoslav side .. claimed that the refugee outflows were caused by mass panic in the Kosovo Albanian population, and that the exodus was generated principally by fear of NATO bombs. It was also alleged that the exodus was encouraged by KLA guerillas, and that in some cases the KLA issued direct orders to Albanians to flee. ... etc.

 

[son of baglimit]

aint it ironic the 'peace and love' troupe are supporting a mercenary !!!

 

[2020hindsight]

aint it ironic the 'peace and love' troupe are supporting a mercenary !!!

based on the timing of your post son of baglimit,
I assume you're supporting Milosevic ?

 

[Bobby]

Checking my personal mail, I,m not the only one who skips 2020s posts

Who else

Bob.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Checking my personal mail, I,m not the only one who skips 2020s posts

Who else

Bob.

Bob,

I skip them happily.
Snake

 

[Bobby]

Bob,

I skip them happily.
Snake

Yep Snake ,

Gee what a bore, but at least he's consistent

Bob.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Yep Snake ,
Gee what a bore, but at least he's constant

Bob, more like a perpetuating virus.

The love and peace brigade days are history. People are tired of it.

 

[Bobby]

Bob, more like a perpetuating virus.

The love and peace brigade days are history. People are tired of it.

Spot on about that Snake !

Just check that action of hate ~ muslems V muslems every night on SBS.
Wow what a peaceful religion

Have Fun
Bob.

 

[2020hindsight]

aint it ironic the 'peace and love' troupe are supporting a mercenary !!!

son of baglimit, there are many ways of looking at this - as there probably are of looking at Kosovo, or East Timor, or Afghanistan, or the Cronulla question ( - where I believe Snake even agreed with me lol) -
and depending on the emphasis, I guess you could be accused of belongiong to a "troupe" as you call it.
Personally here, I'd prefer to call my emphasis "truth and honesty" than "peace and love".

If you had seen the SBS show "Hicks and the President", you would have followed some of Hick's life. - possibly start to understand him. He became a rodeo rider - showed him on a bucking bull for instance. (off subject except that he's no wuss, whatever else he may or may not be).

His motivations for going to Pakistan and Kosovo appeared to be purely religious with a (probably) misguided single mindedness to follow some spiritual calling. Everyone he met who was subsequently interviewed was amazed that a (recent convert) Aussie would be such a dedicated Moslem. He impressed people with some sort of "nun-like peace", lol. Maybe you could call him a "morally driven mercenary" But you'd hardly call him a "commercially driven mercenary".

As for NATO being slow to go into Kosovo, (by comparison to Hicks - not that I'm suggesting we should all be taking these things on ourselves) - international opinion seems to wait until things get totally out of control before they act. (the blood soaked doll that "galvanised" world opinion and NATO / UN will to act in Kosovo; or I guess the bloodbath after the East Timor elections for that matter, after which Aus / UN finally acted )

the threats [by international community] intensified once again but a galvanising event was needed. They got it on September 28 when the mutilated corpses of a family were discovered outside the village of Gornje Obrinje; the bloody doll from there became the rallying image for the ensuing war.

I have asked SBS for details of links to that "Hicks vs President" thing , but no joy as yet.

Maybe you're into a Hollywood version of what Bosnia and Kosovo was like, go watch the likes of "Behind Enemy Lines", Owen Wilson - about downed pilots in Kosova, or Bosnia, forget). typical Hollywood, bludy gruesome etc

As for posts other-than-about-trading, you're right, One things for sure, you'll be financially richer than I will be. But once I've put my bets on, I look for something else to do with my mind - try to pick the "spinball" that the pollies pitch at us - and maybe have an unbiassed initial opinion about the likes of Hicks, at least until I've DMOR

PS Terry Hicks ( his father) says he went to Afghanistan to get his passport - maybe it's as simple as that. Maybe worse - but it any event , Is it a hanging offence to be in a country when the UN/USA attack looking for AQ? - especially confusing when the last country you were in , you were on the same side as NATO/UN? - As Winston Churchill said, it's rarely black and white m8

PPS Just by the way - even Johnny Howard has now joined your "peace and love" brigade lol

(Final comment I promise , for someone who has me on ignore - Bobby sure fills up a lot of space with posts presumably in my direction lol . )

 

[2020hindsight]

Bob, more like a perpetuating virus. The love and peace brigade days are history. People are tired of it.

Snake, here's a couple of thoughts for the day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
An ideology is an organized collection of ideas. The word ideology was coined by Count Antoine Destutt de Tracy in the late 18th century to define a "science of ideas." An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things,….
The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer … what the world ought to be.

"Ideologically aware" seems to be strange contrast to your post about this or that brigade being history "people are tired of it"

Are you saying that the feds who now back Hicks (Howard to some extent at least) are "love and peace brigade" ?

Never forget that one of the most infectious of all concepts (ideolological or otherwise) is a smile m8