Coronavirus vaccine news

[rederob]

Spot on Bas, it isn't as though Morrison is saying younger people have to have it, he is just saying that if they want it and have a discussion with their doctor they can have it.
Which makes sense if there is a supply problem with the Pfizer vaccine, some people want to be vaccinated, it should be their choice.
Now we have NSW saying they can't have it, even if they want it, yet it will be Morrison who is blamed for the slow roll out.

There is a good reason the health experts won't promote using a drug on young people that is known to cause blood clots and death:

Armed with this data if I were a doctor I could not recommend a drug known to have a chance of causing death as a side effect when there is a current alternative that is not as problematic for young people.
Moreover, if I were a young person and took all reasonable health measures then waiting a few more months for Pfizer or Moderna would not be a big deal. As it is, we in Australia will need to actively maintain reasonable measures well into 2022 because we simply do not have enough vaccines. Most of us have already had to wait a long time before either being able to get or becoming eligible for vaccination.
While true that increased rates of immunisation will progressively lead to lesser rates of hospitalisation, we in Australia have successfully stalled widescale spread on numerous occasions. In that light there is considerable logic to health advice that proposes a slower rollout of a less deadly vaccine rather than now risking the life of young people to achieve conceptual herd immunity only marginally faster.

 

[basilio]

There is a good reason the health experts won't promote using a drug on young people that is known to cause blood clots and death:
View attachment 126871
Armed with this data if I were a doctor I could not recommend a drug known to have a chance of causing death as a side effect when there is a current alternative that is not as problematic for young people.
Moreover, if I were a young person and took all reasonable health measures then waiting a few more months for Pfizer or Moderna would not be a big deal. As it is, we in Australia will need to actively maintain reasonable measures well into 2022 because we simply do not have enough vaccines. Most of us have already had to wait a long time before either being able to get or becoming eligible for vaccination.
While true that increased rates of immunisation will progressively lead to lesser rates of hospitalisation, we in Australia have successfully stalled widescale spread on numerous occasions. In that light there is considerable logic to health advice that proposes a slower rollout of a less deadly vaccine rather than now risking the life of young people to achieve conceptual herd immunity only marginally faster.

Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis. But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.

The aggressive way the new delta COVID has spread overseas undermines the validity of using last years figures which were focused on people in aged care facilities as primary causalities. That just isn't the case at the moment.

So if delta COVID gets away many. many more younger people will get it, fall sick and pass it on. The death rate we can't be sure about but there will many very sick people and a significant number who end up with long COVID. So the question of balancing these poor outcomes with a small number of poor outcomes with vaccination via Astra Zectra becomes re weighted .

I also repeat the point that if more people are vaccinated there is better chance to reduce person to person transmission.

I believe there would many many people under 40 who would recognise the risk balance between getting an Astra Jab now that will offer protection against COVID vs waiting an indefinite time for what seems to be slightly safer alternative. Lets remember there are also other known health side effects with Pfizer.

If difficult situations the saying "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. " is worth remembering.

Dr Blyth, who has been a member of ATAGI since 2009, was questioned about whether the risks associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine were overblown considering other common pharmaceuticals carry an even greater chance of blood clotting.

"Importantly, that is what people have to do every day — some people may choose to take that risk, other people may elect not to and wait for an alternative product," he said.

"These are always tricky decisions as far as an individual's risk, and people need to be aware of those numbers so they can make an informed decision for themselves."

The decision to allow Australians under the age of 40 to elect to get the AstraZeneca vaccine has been welcomed by some members of the community, who feared they would have to wait many more months before getting access to a vaccine.

AstraZeneca is produced in Australia, with hundreds of thousands of doses rolling off the production line at Melbourne's CSL plant each week.

Supplies of Pfizer remain tight, given all doses need to be imported from overseas.

Very few situations where under-40s should get AstraZeneca, ATAGI chair says

Despite Prime Minister Scott Morrison saying Australians under 40 are welcome to ask their GP about getting the AstraZeneca shot, the co-chair of the advisory body on vaccines says the number of "situations where that would be warranted … are quite small".

www.abc.net.au

Rare heart inflammation could be linked to mRNA vaccines, research shows

Rare cases of heart inflammation could be linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, according to new research, but medical experts say the risk of the conditions is still far lower than the risks of serious illness or death from contracting COVID-19.

www.abc.net.au

 

[moXJO]

Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis. But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.

The aggressive way the new delta COVID has spread overseas undermines the validity of using last years figures which were focused on people in aged care facilities as primary causalities. That just isn't the case at the moment.

So if delta COVID gets away many. many more younger people will get it, fall sick and pass it on. The death rate we can't be sure about but there will many very sick people and a significant number who end up with long COVID. So the question of balancing these poor outcomes with a small number of poor outcomes with vaccination via Astra Zectra becomes re weighted .

I also repeat the point that if more people are vaccinated there is better chance to reduce person to person transmission.

I believe there would many many people under 40 who would recognise the risk balance between getting an Astra Jab now that will offer protection against COVID vs waiting an indefinite time for what seems to be slightly safer alternative. Lets remember there are also other known health side effects with Pfizer.

If difficult situations the saying "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. " is worth remembering.

Dr Blyth, who has been a member of ATAGI since 2009, was questioned about whether the risks associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine were overblown considering other common pharmaceuticals carry an even greater chance of blood clotting.

"Importantly, that is what people have to do every day — some people may choose to take that risk, other people may elect not to and wait for an alternative product," he said.


The decision to allow Australians under the age of 40 to elect to get the AstraZeneca vaccine has been welcomed by some members of the community, who feared they would have to wait many more months before getting access to a vaccine.

AstraZeneca is produced in Australia, with hundreds of thousands of doses rolling off the production line at Melbourne's CSL plant each week.

Supplies of Pfizer remain tight, given all doses need to be imported from overseas.

Very few situations where under-40s should get AstraZeneca, ATAGI chair says

Despite Prime Minister Scott Morrison saying Australians under 40 are welcome to ask their GP about getting the AstraZeneca shot, the co-chair of the advisory body on vaccines says the number of "situations where that would be warranted … are quite small".

www.abc.net.au

Rare heart inflammation could be linked to mRNA vaccines, research shows

Rare cases of heart inflammation could be linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, according to new research, but medical experts say the risk of the conditions is still far lower than the risks of serious illness or death from contracting COVID-19.

www.abc.net.au

I agree.
It also means getting back to normal faster.
The mental health impacts on young people because of lockdowns is a concern.
Then the cost savings to the economy.

Either way we will be lucky to get out of this with zero deaths

 

[rederob]

Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis. But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.

I am strongly pro vaccination, but with properly balanced risk.
I won't link to it as it's not yet peer reviewed to my knowledge, but even Pfizer and Moderna are now being closely examined for side effects which are heart related, although I am not aware of attribution of subsequent deaths. The point being, lots of things we voluntarily add to our bodies can cause harm (sugar being one of the very worst on mass consumption).
I don't doubt the delta strain of SARS-CoV-2 is highly infectious, but my personal view is that until we reach high rates of full vaccination we must maintain very strong counter measures to infection irrespective of anyone's vaccination status.
If everything got bad here in a matter of weeks then the relatively small extra numbers of PM-proposed young people AZ vaccinations would not make a meaningful difference. The full benefits of vaccination come after a second dose, and the proven science shows that waiting as many months as possible for that second dose generates the strongest antibody/t-cell response.
Currently the data shows Australia's vaccination rates as near the world average, which is rather pathetic given the number of advanced nations that have run at twice our rate for a considerable time.

I am not suggesting that people with "choice" as option should not be allowed to exercise that choice. I am not offered that choice, however, as for me right now its AZ or nothing! Which is fine, as even if I were younger I would not be in a hurry to take AZ based on available evidence.
What I am saying is right now I don't believe the circumstances warrant young people choosing AZ when the time delay to a safer option would be unlikely to materially affect the spread of the delta strain in the interim.

 

[bellenuit]

From another forum. I don't have the source, but I would think it is easily verifiable.

Vaccinated health workers at West Hoxton birthday party didn't contract COVID-19, NSW Health reveals​

The highly contagious Delta strain of COVID-19 infected everyone who attended a Sydney birthday party except for the six people who were vaccinated, the NSW Government said.

Key points:​

• Over 2,100,000 people in NSW have received a vaccination
• The health workers at the West Hoxton party were fully vaccinated and did not contract the virus
• The Premier declined introducing "incentives" for vaccinations, calling them "unfair"

The West Hoxton party — described as a "super spreader" event — has become one of the most significant transmission events in the NSW breakout with 24 of the 30 attendees, and many of their household contacts, all testing positive for COVID-19.
The virus would have had a near 100 per cent transmission rate were it not for six people who attended the party who had already received a jab.
"To emphasise just how important vaccinations are … not one of those 24 people were vaccinated," NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard said on Monday.
"I can also advise that six health workers who attended the party, who were fully vaccinated, not one of those people has been infected."

 

[sptrawler]

Apparently there is a greater chance of getting the clotting syndrome, from the contraceptive pill, but I guess everyone would be up in arms if they banned that.lol
Just another media and muppet road show.

 

[grah33]

Firstly though, we know in that famous NSW party that all members caught it except the vaccinated ones.

yet all were healthy in the end, i've been told

and today's TV news : person was vaccinated but still got it

 

[grah33]

Morrison's plan (today's news) : eventually only those vaccinated will not have to endure lock downs. seems to be going to script . we're losing our freedom.

 

[wayneL]

Morrison's plan (today's news) : eventually only those vaccinated will not have to endure lock downs. seems to be going to script . we're losing our freedom.

And "we" are letting it happen. I wish the complicit would wake the f*** up.

 

[bellenuit]

Yea. Soon they will not be allowed to smoke in our cars if there are kids there. What next? We must also fit our cars with brakes?

The people of India are really sympathetic to our plight.

 

[wayneL]

Yea. Soon they will not be allowed to smoke in our cars if there are kids there. What next? We must also fit our cars with brakes?

The people of India are really sympathetic to our plight.

Yeah, actually, with the risk of driving we should not be doing that. Ban cars.

While we are at it:
Ban cigarettes altogether, alcohol, trans fats, sugar, risky sports, marriage(DV you see), war, all administration of medicines (medical misadventure you see), old age.

F0ck it, let's ban the leading cause of death... birth.

FFS

 

[basilio]

Don't worry. The good folks of Bowral organic store are turning the tables and won't let the vaccinators get away with their perfidy.

 

[wayneL]

Don't worry. The good folks of Bowral organic store are turning the tables and won't let the vaccinators get away with their perfidy.

View attachment 126975

Yep, very professional policing there.

 

[bellenuit]

Yeah, actually, with the risk of driving we should not be doing that. Ban cars.

While we are at it:
Ban cigarettes altogether, alcohol, trans fats, sugar, risky sports, marriage(DV you see), war, all administration of medicines (medical misadventure you see), old age.

F0ck it, let's ban the leading cause of death... birth.

FFS

Should we ban smoking in cars when there are children in the car?

 

[wayneL]

Should we ban smoking in cars when there are children in the car?

I'm not sure where I sit ideologically on that point, (and I think it is somewhat irrelevant to this thread) but I certainly think it would be irresponsible for an adult to smoke when there are children in the car.

And believe you me, I am a victim of it.

However if you are trying to draw some sort of parallel with mask mandates, you are so far off the mark that it's laughable. Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.

 

[rederob]

I'm not sure where I sit ideologically on that point, (and I think it is somewhat irrelevant to this thread) but I certainly think it would be irresponsible for an adult to smoke when there are children in the car.

How is a health initiative irrelevant?
Mask mandates are implemented in most States/Territories under Health legislation.

However if you are trying to draw some sort of parallel with mask mandates, you are so far off the mark that it's laughable. Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.

Here's some of the unequivocal science on masks:

 

[bellenuit]

Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.

The thing is there are several versions of the science and one tends to believe the version that aligns most with one's ideology.

Not being a scientist in that field myself, I will accept the opinions of the vast majority of experts in the field that are advising the governments, such as groups like the CDC. Why? Because they have been right on most other things related to virology, such as the effectiveness of vaccines in combating the many viruses and diseases that have been prevalent for the last few hundred years and are now almost entirely eradicated.

On the other hand the "alternative" science versions seem to be the preserve of those who have been wrong on everything this last century. Not just the anti-vaxxers, but also many of the other conspiratorial nutcases who seem to embrace ideas such as a flat earth, chemtrails or some freakish religion.

If someone, whether a genuine scientists or not, espouses some idea that goes against the mainstream science (not in itself a bad thing), somehow all of these groups immediately regurgitate that as right and the mainstream must be wrong, even though few have the expertise to make that evaluation.

The best we as laymen can do is observe and see what makes sense. We have seen COVID infections fall in line with mask wearing and social distancing and falling dramatically with the introduction of the vaccines. Where mask wearing and social distancing guidelines have been relaxed too soon, there has been a reversal. That is good enough evidence for me.

Our governments have to make decisions based on the best advice they has been given (not that they always do). The vast majority, except for those before mentioned groups, believe that they are making the right decisions, notwithstanding their chaotic roll-out of AZ. When they impose restrictions on us that are based on the recommendations they have received, then I trust that they are acting in our best interests. When it comes to national health in the midst of the worst pandemic of the last century, then we cannot expect to have the right to act contrary to the restrictions imposed just because we have been influenced by some website or other that we are reading.

It's a minor inconvenience considering the gravity of the situation as experienced overseas by those who didn't act appropriately. But most of all, we all know these are temporary inconveniences that will be relaxed when the recommendations allow it. The constant whining of losing ones freedom is just a heap of bollocks.

 

[wayneL]

1/ Nonsense, there is no science that shows any more than very marginal efficacy of the five cent asks that the average sheeple wears. there is science showing the efficacy of different types of masks but also the science shows that in common usage the efficacy of such masks are rendered virtually useless unless the same protocols that surgeons use are employed.

2/ One need not be a scientist to be able to discern bull****, even if one doesn't need to be able to learn how to read scientific literature.

As I have outlined often on this forum, I have been an avid consumer of science in the fields of equine exercise physiology, equine nutrition and equine distal biomechanics.

At least 90% of the papers are pure bilge, absolute nonsense that are ludicrously easy to discredit.

I would hazard a guess that it is the same in most fields. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that that is how science operates, sorting the chaff from the chatter via scientific process, post peer review... falsification, reputation and whatnot.

The takeaway message is that most science is crap.

3/ Our best interests? at this stage of the game I'm not prepared to give our politicians the benefit of the doubt on this point. It's a complicated point which requires somewha of a treatise and I don't have the time or inclination to do that here and now.

However as a very anecdotal point and to return to the point of my post above, the police appear to be acting in the interests of those other than the general public IMNSVHO.... And once again I have some personal experience on that point which I am only prepared to divulge to anyone in person.

NB apologies for any autocorrect weirdness

 

[Knobby22]

yet all were healthy in the end, i've been told

and today's TV news : person was vaccinated but still got it

Out of less than 190 cases, two are in ICU. If you get vaccinated and still catch you get it milder. UK stats tell the story.

 

[Knobby22]

Just a question? Any Sydney siders here? Are people taking the lockdown seriously? Community cases are going up, this lockdown doesn't look like ending soon.

Ps. Apologies wrong info previous post, 172 cases in NSW, three in ICU, none on ventilators.