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Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.

We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.

The AZ vaccine reportedly has a 63% effectiveness: https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

The Pfizer vaccine is reported to be 95% effective: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison.

The AZ vaccine comes with a small but not zero chance of blood clots, the occurrence of which has resulted in actual deaths. The Pfizer vaccine does not come with this problem.

So if one is 63% effectiveness with a small but not zero chance of really bad side effects, and the other is 95% effective without that risk, then why on earth is anyone using the less effective and more dangerous one?

What am I missing here? Shouldn't all focus be on the one that's more effective and safer?
 
Smurf1976 said:
Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.

We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.

The AZ vaccine reportedly has a 63% effectiveness: https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

The Pfizer vaccine is reported to be 95% effective: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison.

The AZ vaccine comes with a small but not zero chance of blood clots, the occurrence of which has resulted in actual deaths. The Pfizer vaccine does not come with this problem.

So if one is 63% effectiveness with a small but not zero chance of really bad side effects, and the other is 95% effective without that risk, then why on earth is anyone using the less effective and more dangerous one?

What am I missing here? Shouldn't all focus be on the one that's more effective and safer?
Click to expand...
We have no deal with Pfizer to manufacture their vaccine.
So without AZ availability via CSL we are a vaccine rollout backwater.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.

We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.

The AZ vaccine reportedly has a 63% effectiveness: https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

The Pfizer vaccine is reported to be 95% effective: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison.

The AZ vaccine comes with a small but not zero chance of blood clots, the occurrence of which has resulted in actual deaths. The Pfizer vaccine does not come with this problem.

So if one is 63% effectiveness with a small but not zero chance of really bad side effects, and the other is 95% effective without that risk, then why on earth is anyone using the less effective and more dangerous one?

What am I missing here? Shouldn't all focus be on the one that's more effective and safer?
Click to expand...
www.abc.net.au

Getting 40 million Pfizer doses to Australia 'won't be easy', experts warn

Given the advice that under-50s in Australia now receive the Pfizer vaccine over AstraZeneca, supply of the European jab has become even more important. But can we flick the switch and access more?
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Which has led to this.

www.theguardian.com

Australian government considering helping local manufacture of mRNA Covid vaccines

Health minister says there would be ‘a significant period of scaling up’ to produce vaccines such as Pfizer en masse
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Smurf1976 said:
Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.

We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.

The AZ vaccine reportedly has a 63% effectiveness: https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

The Pfizer vaccine is reported to be 95% effective: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison.

The AZ vaccine comes with a small but not zero chance of blood clots, the occurrence of which has resulted in actual deaths. The Pfizer vaccine does not come with this problem.

So if one is 63% effectiveness with a small but not zero chance of really bad side effects, and the other is 95% effective without that risk, then why on earth is anyone using the less effective and more dangerous one?

What am I missing here? Shouldn't all focus be on the one that's more effective and safer?
Click to expand...


Nothing, at the start of the COVID vaccine development Australian experts were crying out for the Government to fund mRNA production here in Australia.

The governments response was it would take a year to setup, this was Feb 2020.

Instead they went all in with AZ.

I imagine this was based on advice heaven forbid if it wasn't at that time there had been no successful mRNA vaccine produced..

Problem now is we are in a very long line looking for supply from Pfizer.

Down the road our bigger problem will be possibly getting caught out with a population not vaccinated and a nasty variant breaking out.

The government know there is a train coming at them as the delay in opening international boarder will have major ramifications politically hence the jumping in behind the states.
 
IFocus said:
Nothing, at the start of the COVID vaccine development Australian experts were crying out for the Government to fund mRNA production here in Australia.

The governments response was it would take a year to setup, this was Feb 2020.

Instead they went all in with AZ.

I imagine this was based on advice heaven forbid if it wasn't at that time there had been no successful mRNA vaccine produced..

Problem now is we are in a very long line looking for supply from Pfizer.

Down the road our bigger problem will be possibly getting caught out with a population not vaccinated and a nasty variant breaking out.

The government know there is a train coming at them as the delay in opening international boarder will have major ramifications politically hence the jumping in behind the states.
Click to expand...
Also from my understanding the AZ vaccine can be made here.
Another point is, the Astra Zeneca vaccine has been used widely in the U.K, EU and U.S.A, hasn't it?
Maybe due to the low incidence of the virus in Australia, many are reluctant to get it, especially after the media reports.

Interesting that the Australian experts were calling for the MRNA vaccine in February 2020, when there wasn't an MRNA vaccine back then, most unusual for Australian experts to go out on a limb like that.
I thought the first Pfizer vaccine was developed, to a point where it could be presented to regulators in November 2020, which is only 5 months ago.
www.bbc.com

Covid vaccine: First 'milestone' vaccine offers 90% protection

The vaccine is a "significant step" forward for getting life back to normal, but challenges remain.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
Last edited:
Canada still going with the Astra Zeneca vaccine.
www.abc.net.au

Canada records second rare blood clot linked to AstraZeneca vaccine but says benefits outweigh risks

As the country deals with a surging third wave of infections and hospitals in the country's most populous area come under threat of being overwhelmed, Canadian authorities announce plans to broaden the cohort who can receive AstraZeneca's vaccine.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
From the article:
Canada has reported a second case of rare blood clots linked to the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in a week, but health authorities continue to recommend the use of the shot.

Based on the evidence available, Canada still maintains that the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh the potential risks, the statement said.

Canada health authorities "will continue to monitor the use of all COVID-19 vaccines closely and examine and assess any new safety concerns," the statement said.
Despite the emergence of the second linked case of blood clotting, Ontario will begin offering the AstraZeneca vaccine from Tuesday (local time) to people turning 40 or older this year, according to a government source.
 
Denmark stops the roll out of the AstraZeneca vaccine, the EU considering the same, sounds as if the public losing confidence.
www.bbc.com

AstraZeneca vaccine: Denmark stops rollout completely

It is the first European country to fully withdraw the jab over possible links to rare blood clots.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
From the article:
Denmark has ceased giving the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine amid concerns about rare cases of blood clots, the first European country to do so fully.
The move is expected to delay the country's vaccination programme by several weeks.
Drug watchdog the European Medicines Agency last week announced a possible link with clots but said the risk of dying of Covid-19 was much greater.
Several European countries had previously briefly suspended the jab.
Most have now resumed vaccinations with AstraZeneca, but often with limits to older age groups.
On Tuesday, the US, Canada and the European Union paused the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for similar reasons over clotting.
 
And we have the nerve to complain. :rolleyes: We really are the lucky country IMO.
au.news.yahoo.com

'We're helpless': Fears for country ‘running out of oxygen’

Critical medical supplies including oxygen are in desperately low supply as the giant nation battles a chronic Covid crisis.
au.news.yahoo.com au.news.yahoo.com
From the article:
As India's coronavirus situation threatens to spiral out of control, overrun hospitals are scrambling to come up with something we usually take for granted: oxygen.

The country of 1.3 billion people added a record-high of 261,500 new cases on Sunday (local time), with one in six people who underwent a test returning a positive coronavirus result, authorities said.

In India’s capital New Delhi the situation appears twice as dire as it recorded 25,500 cases in a 24-hour period, with about one in three people returning a positive result.


Less than 100 critical care beds were available in the city of more than 20 million people, Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal said, as social media was flooded with people complaining about lack of beds, oxygen and drugs.
 
I expect what will happen here is that there will be a low turnout to be vaccinated using the AstraZeneca vaccine as people are too complacent due to our extremely low infection numbers and will prefer to wait. But with Covid-19 out of control in many countries now, one way or another we are going to get a large outbreak later in the year. Then there will be mass panic and people will be begging for whatever vaccine they can get.

That's why I am getting my first AZ vaccine this Saturday.
 
Humid said:
theconversation.com

3 doses, then 1 each year: why Pfizer, not AstraZeneca, is the best bet for the long haul

Our best long-term strategy is to rely on the mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna.
theconversation.com theconversation.com

Would you hold off for this?
Click to expand...
Phizer is looking like the safest long term bet, but long term means different things to a 30 year old , than a 75 year old.
The other aspect is, I would have thought just because someone has the AZ shot this year, which covers the current virus, shouldn't preclude the same person having the Phizer MRNA vaccine next year when it becomes more available.
 
sptrawler said:
Phizer is looking like the safest long term bet, but long term means different things to a 30 year old , than a 75 year old.
The other aspect is, I would have thought just because someone has the AZ shot this year, which covers the current virus, shouldn't preclude the same person having the Phizer MRNA vaccine next year when it becomes more available.
Click to expand...
My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.

But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.

One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?
 
I was surprised to find that 'effectiveness' was only a reduction of symptoms after you got the virus. This came out in Nov 2020

COVID-19 Vaccine Trials ‘Designed to Succeed’​

In September 2020, Haseltine criticized COVID-19 vaccine trials, including Pfizer’s, saying their protocols reveal that they’re “designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal.”13

He points out that prevention of infection is a critical endpoint in a normal vaccine trial, but prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for COVID-19 vaccines in development by Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca or Johnson & Johnson. According to Haseltine:14

“Any vaccine trial should include regular antigen testing every three days to test contagiousness to pick up early signs of infection and PCR testing once a week to confirm infection by SARS-CoV-2 test the ability of the vaccines to stave off infection. Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines.
Click to expand...
In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success, the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected.”
Click to expand...
He also explains that while most people expect that a vaccine will prevent serious illness in the event they’re infected, “Three of the vaccine protocols — Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca — do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.”15
 
pozindustrial said:
I was surprised to find that 'effectiveness' was only a reduction of symptoms after you got the virus. This came out in Nov 2020

COVID-19 Vaccine Trials ‘Designed to Succeed’​

In September 2020, Haseltine criticized COVID-19 vaccine trials, including Pfizer’s, saying their protocols reveal that they’re “designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal.”13

He points out that prevention of infection is a critical endpoint in a normal vaccine trial, but prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for COVID-19 vaccines in development by Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca or Johnson & Johnson. According to Haseltine:14



He also explains that while most people expect that a vaccine will prevent serious illness in the event they’re infected, “Three of the vaccine protocols — Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca — do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.”15
Click to expand...
I explained some aspects of this earlier.
Efficacy is the scientific outcome from randomised control trials, almost always involving healthy people.
Effectiveness is the observational outcome from large group studies, ie. young, old, infirm etc..
A vaccine with very high efficacy may have a very undesirable side effect, eg AZ's blood clots, while lesser effective vaccines may have no cases of hospitalisation at all.
I would rather the latter.
 
bellenuit said:
My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.

But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.

One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?
Click to expand...

Been wondering the same

"It is important to note that there were still no cases of hospitalization for severe Covid-19 or deaths observed in the study. Yet the authors did caution that the relatively young median age of participants (30 years) likely influenced the lack of severe Covid-19 cases."

www.forbes.com

AstraZeneca Vaccine Fails To Protect Against The South African Variant, Says Study

Two doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine were found to have only a 10.4% efficacy against mild-to-moderate infections caused by the B.1.351 South Africa variant, according to a phase 1b-2 clinical trial published on Tuesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
bellenuit said:
My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.

But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.

One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?
Click to expand...

When you get the vaccine, then you should go to India to test its efficacy. That would seem like a decent road test for both whether it works and whether it reduces the symptoms. I will be happy to pay for your ticket if you take my mother in law with you and do same.
 
Issues with COVID if you get it

"
The team, comprising researchers from NTU, Agency for Science, Technology and Research's (A*STAR) Singapore Immunology Network (SIgN), and the National Centre of Infectious Diseases, Singapore (NCID), collected and analysed blood samples from 30 COVID-19 patients a month after they had recovered from the infection and were discharged from hospital. They found that all recovered COVID-19 patients had signs of blood vessel damage, possibly from a lingering immune response, which may trigger the formation of blood clots.

Their findings were published on 23 March in the peer-reviewed scientific journal eLife."

www.eurekalert.org

NTU Singapore study investigates link between COVID-19 and risk of blood clot formation

People who have recovered from COVID-19, especially those with pre-existing cardiovascular conditions, may be at risk of developing blood clots due to a lingering and overactive immune response, according to a study led by Nanyang Technological University, Singapore (NTU) scientists.
www.eurekalert.org
 
Personally living in W.A, I have decided to put travel plans on hold until 2023, so if possible I will hold off having the vaccine until it is time to travel.
Of course this could change if the incidence of cases in W.A increases and or the vaccine becomes compulsory.
I'm not anti vax, far from it, just a personal choice on this vaccine, if I lived on the East Coast my decision could be different.
 
I believe being informed is as important for investing as it is for health decisions. Just as traders rely on information from graphs and investing resources before making decisions, people rely on public health information before they take a medical-related course of action. I do not like the fact that our media hardly ever give us available facts about vaccines. Anyone can look up VAERS information, but most people do not know it exists. Here is some info from it.

Data released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on the number of injuries and deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) following COVID vaccines revealed reports of blood clots and other related blood disorders associated with all three vaccines approved for Emergency Use Authorization in the U.S. — Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson (J&J). So far, only the J&J vaccine has been paused because of blood clot concerns.

VAERS is the primary mechanism for reporting adverse vaccine reactions in the U.S. Reports submitted to VAERS require further investigation before a causal relationship can be confirmed.

Every Friday, VAERS makes public all vaccine injury reports received through a specified date, usually about a week prior to the release date. Today’s data show that between Dec. 14, 2020 and April 8, a total of 68,347 total adverse events were reported to VAERS, including 2,602 deaths — an increase of 260 over the previous week — and 8,285 serious injuries, up 314 since last week.

Of the 2,602 deaths reported as of April 8, 27% occurred within 48 hours of vaccination, 19% occurred within 24 hours and 41% occurred in people who became ill within 48 hours of being vaccinated.

In the U.S., 174.9 million COVID vaccine doses had been administered as of April 8. This includes 79.6 million doses of Moderna’s vaccine, 90.3 million doses of Pfizer and 4.9 million doses of the J&J COVID vaccine.

This week’s VAERS data show:

19% of deaths were related to cardiac disorders.

55% of those who died were male, 43% were female and the remaining death reports did not include gender of the deceased.

The average age of those who died was 77 and the youngest death was an 18-year-old. There are a few reported deaths in children under 18, but these reports contained errors.

As of April 8, 408 pregnant women had reported adverse events related to COVID vaccines, including 114 reports of miscarriage or premature birth.

Of the 678 cases of Bell’s Palsy reported, 59% of cases were reported after Pfizer-BioNTech vaccinations, 38% following vaccination with the Moderna vaccine and 24 cases (4%) of Bell’s Palsy were reported with J&J.

There were 77 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome with 55% of cases attributed to Pfizer, 40% to Moderna and 10% to J&J.

Just like the Tesla crash that killed two people yesterday these adverse reactions are 'very rare' and worth the risk because of the greater risk of the disease (or error-prone human-controlled vehicles) unless it happens to you!
 

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