Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion

[basilio]

Vaccination rates are heading well over 80%, why keep on hammering those that chose not to vaccinate, when do you say "ok it's your choice"?

I don't believe that's the case SP. After all ScoMo said when we reach 80% vaxxed we can start opening up. We are a long way off 80%.

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

1) People are social. We respond to the influence of our peers. Keeping up the messaging will move many people to finally get vaxxed

2) The idea that 80% vaccination is sufficient to keep COVID under control is proving unrealistic. There are now enough examples around the world of countries with high vax rates but COVID is still spreading and those who are not vaxxed are getting very sick and dying. Which leads to :

3) When the unvaxxed get very sick with COVID it leads to excessve strains on the health system all of us need access to. As it stands our medical facilities work very hard to deal with the normal range of cancers, accidents, heart attacks and other illneses. It needs a rampant highly infectious disease aka COVID like a hole in the head.

4) Finally allowing COVID to still spread across the community just quickens the creation of new strains of the disease. We already know how dangerous the new strains are. We can't have a strain that basically laughs at vaccines or becomes even more virulent.

 

[mullokintyre]

There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
You can select stats by state.
In the case of NSW,
There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219 (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
So in NSW at least, you have a 1.6% chance of ending up in ICU, and 0.9% chance of ending up on a ventilator.
One of the stats that jumped out at me was that the percentage of both full and partial vaxed people in ICU has gone from 16% a week ago to 26%as reported today. That is significantly higher than I would have expected, even given that the number of ICU patients vaxed will go up as the total percentage of people goes up.
However, that increase is much higher than I would have expected.

The figures for Victoria read that of the 5,000 odd cases, 207 or 4.1% were hospitalised, 56 or 1.1% were in ICU, and 40 or 0.8% were on ventilators. Interestingly, in Victoria at least, zero patients in ICU were vaxed (either one or two doses).
I wish I could explain this vast difference between Vic and NSW for Vaxed patients in ICU, but of the top of my head can't think of reason to explain this big difference.
But it does show how Victoria, after a disastrous start, has managed to improve their efficacy of treatment.
NSW has had 282 deaths from their 50,000 odd cases, a mortality rate of 0.6.
Thanks to the 800 + deaths from Victorias first round of Covid, Victoria has had 830 deaths from 28,000 cases, a mortality rate of 3.
This has improved significantly since that first round.
Mick

 

[macca]

There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
You can select stats by state.
In the case of NSW,
There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219 (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
So in NSW at least, you have a 1.6% chance of ending up in ICU, and 0.9% chance of ending up on a ventilator.
One of the stats that jumped out at me was that the percentage of both full and partial vaxed people in ICU has gone from 16% a week ago to 26%as reported today. That is significantly higher than I would have expected, even given that the number of ICU patients vaxed will go up as the total percentage of people goes up.
However, that increase is much higher than I would have expected.

The figures for Victoria read that of the 5,000 odd cases, 207 or 4.1% were hospitalised, 56 or 1.1% were in ICU, and 40 or 0.8% were on ventilators. Interestingly, in Victoria at least, zero patients in ICU were vaxed (either one or two doses).
I wish I could explain this vast difference between Vic and NSW for Vaxed patients in ICU, but of the top of my head can't think of reason to explain this big difference.
But it does show how Victoria, after a disastrous start, has managed to improve their efficacy of treatment.
NSW has had 282 deaths from their 50,000 odd cases, a mortality rate of 0.6.
Thanks to the 800 + deaths from Victorias first round of Covid, Victoria has had 830 deaths from 28,000 cases, a mortality rate of 3.
This has improved significantly since that first round.
Mick

Interesting post, we need to remember that these figures are coming from people who have been offered no health assistance at all, the current advice is to take Panadol etc

 

[sptrawler]

I don't believe that's the case SP. After all ScoMo said when we reach 80% vaxxed we can start opening up. We are a long way off 80%.

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

NSW is by for the biggest population State, they are now over 80% first vaccination, so as I said we are well on our way to 80%.
The trajectory of the uptake is such, that the East coast will be over 80% by Christmas, so IMO we are well on our way to having most who want to be vaccinated done.
So I repeat, why keep hammering those who don't want to have some new technological fluid injected into them? If I was 20 years younger I would be flicking the bird as well, until i started seeing some real evidence it is all in my best interest.

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Elicits Cell Signaling in Human Host Cells: Implications for Possible Consequences of COVID-19 Vaccines

The world is suffering from the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). SARS-CoV-2 uses its spike protein to enter the host cells. Vaccines that introduce the spike protein into ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Obviously some are never going to conform, which in reality is their right, if they don't want to be vaccinated and are prepared to take their chances with covid so be it. Is it any different to smoking, drinking, taking drugs? this is a viral infection that kills very few young people, why force them to have a vaccine?
Now they are saying the mRNA is good to go with 6-12 year olds, I mean really? What the hell is going on, it isn't the black plague yet.
Things are getting very weird.

Ten police injured, more than 200 arrested in anti-lockdown protest

Hundreds of protesters have converged despite limits on travel in and out of Melbourne by public transport and car.

www.theage.com.au

 

[basilio]

Covid is not like smoking or drinking or taking drugs. These are ongoing voluntary activities which aren't "infectious" . They also don't morph into more dangerous strains.

In any case we do have ongoing social messaging campaigns against smoking and excessive drinking becasue society recognises they are dangerous. And we have banned cigarette advertising for that reason.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

1) People are social. We respond to the influence of our peers. Keeping up the messaging will move many people to finally get vaxxed

2) The idea that 80% vaccination is sufficient to keep COVID under control is proving unrealistic. There are now enough examples around the world of countries with high vax rates but COVID is still spreading and those who are not vaxxed are getting very sick and dying. Which leads to :

3) When the unvaxxed get very sick with COVID it leads to excessve strains on the health system all of us need access to. As it stands our medical facilities work very hard to deal with the normal range of cancers, accidents, heart attacks and other illneses. It needs a rampant highly infectious disease aka COVID like a hole in the head.

4) Finally allowing COVID to still spread across the community just quickens the creation of new strains of the disease. We already know how dangerous the new strains are. We can't have a strain that basically laughs at vaccines or becomes even more virulent.

 

[sptrawler]

Covid is not like smoking or drinking or taking drugs. These are ongoing voluntary activities which aren't "infectious" . They also don't morph into more dangerous strains.

In any case we do have ongoing social messaging campaigns against smoking and excessive drinking becasue society recognises they are dangerous. And we have banned cigarette advertising for that reason.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

1) People are social. We respond to the influence of our peers. Keeping up the messaging will move many people to finally get vaxxed

2) The idea that 80% vaccination is sufficient to keep COVID under control is proving unrealistic. There are now enough examples around the world of countries with high vax rates but COVID is still spreading and those who are not vaxxed are getting very sick and dying. Which leads to :

3) When the unvaxxed get very sick with COVID it leads to excessve strains on the health system all of us need access to. As it stands our medical facilities work very hard to deal with the normal range of cancers, accidents, heart attacks and other illneses. It needs a rampant highly infectious disease aka COVID like a hole in the head.

4) Finally allowing COVID to still spread across the community just quickens the creation of new strains of the disease. We already know how dangerous the new strains are. We can't have a strain that basically laughs at vaccines or becomes even more virulent.

Did you read this part of the post Bas?
Like I said, at my age who cares, if I was 20 years younger I would.

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Elicits Cell Signaling in Human Host Cells: Implications for Possible Consequences of COVID-19 Vaccines

The world is suffering from the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). SARS-CoV-2 uses its spike protein to enter the host cells. Vaccines that introduce the spike protein into ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[basilio]

Did you read this part of the post Bas?
Like I said, at my age who cares, if I was 20 years younger I would.

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Elicits Cell Signaling in Human Host Cells: Implications for Possible Consequences of COVID-19 Vaccines

The world is suffering from the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). SARS-CoV-2 uses its spike protein to enter the host cells. Vaccines that introduce the spike protein into ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein ? Has it caused significant rethinking about the safety of the vaccine ? Does it happen with Astra Zenneca or just the Pfizer vacs ?

I don't know enough to be an authority. I'm sincerely hoping the people who test and check the vaccines are making good decisions.

On history alone I'm sure there will be some bad consequences on some people. That has already happened. The issue is balance of risk. What are the overall likely consequences of not vaccinating vs vaccination.

 

[sptrawler]

So how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein ? Has it caused significant rethinking about the safety of the vaccine ? Does it happen with Astra Zenneca or just the Pfizer vacs ?

I don't know enough to be an authority. I'm sincerely hoping the people who test and check the vaccines are making good decisions.

On history alone I'm sure there will be some bad consequences on some people. That has already happened. The issue is balance of risk. What are the overall likely consequences of not vaccinating vs vaccination.

I don't know either, but I know if I was a lot younger, I would be a lot more concerned.
As for how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein, I'm not sure the human body, has had spike protein injected into it before.
Also I know I'm not going to berate people, to just shut the F$%k up and take the vaccine, because I'm not convinced they know, if it is the magic formulae they say it is.
As the article says, it is new, it is relatively untested and it needs to be closely monitored.

 

[IFocus]

On the % vaccinated its not total population is it?

Closer to 60%?

So I think currently 50% breakthrough for vaccinated (Delta that can be spread) then add 40% more people unvaccinated plus the anti vaxs you end up with a very large group all ready for ICU.

It will be interesting where it all goes.

This is going to get messy and the politics ugly IMHO.

 

[Belli]

I don't know either, but I know if I was a lot younger, I would be a lot more concerned.
As for how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein, I'm not sure the human body, has had spike protein injected into it before.
Also I know I'm not going to berate people, to just shut the F$%k up and take the vaccine, because I'm not convinced they know, if it is the magic formulae they say it is.
As the article says, it is new, it is relatively untested and it needs to be closely monitored.

I'm comfortable with the process. Thing is the article is published. It isn't just the likes of you and me who can read it but 100's if not thousands of those with expertise in the field. They will go through this and other publications with a fine tooth comb putting it through the wringer. It's how they do it. The concept a vaccine which may be dangerous is recommended for the population is ludicrous. These guys and gals are one of the most cautious groups around.

Anyways, a site I found interesting.

https://www.doherty.edu.au/templates/google-results/f85889365c34653830e2854fbf2e3371

This particular article touched on spike proteins in vaccines.

https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/Warrnambool_Standard_Peter_D.pdf

 

[Belli]

People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.

Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.

 

[sptrawler]

People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.

Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.

All I'm saying is, it is a very personal choice and more and more are choosing to get vaccinated, I think that those who don't wish to shouldn't be brow beaten into submission.

 

[Belli]

All I'm saying is, it is a very personal choice and more and more are choosing to get vaccinated, I think that those who don't wish to shouldn't be brow beaten into submission.

Certainly not disagreeing with your view. I have, however, noticed a trend which has been building for some time. It was quiet at first but the clamour is getting louder and it's coming in some cases from small business operators. Obviously it's only anecdotal but some I've spoken to are really p***** off with those hesitant to get vaccinated. One I know let go one of her staff who did not wish to be vaccinated - "I'm already struggling to keep going and I don't need more stress and possible OH&S liability."

Whether or not that was the correct decision is not for me to say but it does appear to me there is a changing work/social dynamic at play here.

 

[macca]

Dr Fauci must read ASF after all, a bit of info starting to circulate on Vit D,

something that everyone can do at no cost in OZ is get some sunshine

Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, suggested in September 2020 that vitamin D could help fight COVID-19. He also estimated that 40% of the U.S. population is vitamin D deficient. Scientists in this new study were able to prove that novel and physiologically relevant vitamin D and lumisterol derivatives “act on multiple targets, suggesting that they may be effective against original and mutant strains of SARS-CoV-2.” Other benefits of vitamin D cited by researchers include its low cost and easy access. Andrzej T. Slominski, MD, PhD, a senior author of the study, described lumisterol as a natural product.

Vitamin D Emerges as Possible Treatment for COVID-19

Promising new data from a recent study indicates that active forms of vitamin D can inhibit the replication and expansion of COVID-19.

www.newswise.com

 

[Belli]

something that everyone can do at no cost in OZ is get some sunshine

That ain't the form of Vitamin D referred to.

I read somewhere there is 20 or so trials going on researching the use of Vitamin D in the treatment of Covid. Some looking at which stage, eg mild to severe, in which it may be useful to further examine its use. It isn't being looked at as an approach to prevent contracting Covid as far as I am aware.

 

[macca]

That ain't the form of Vitamin D referred to.

I read somewhere there is 20 or so trials going on researching the use of Vitamin D in the treatment of Covid. Some looking at which stage, eg mild to severe, in which it may be useful to further examine its use. It isn't being looked at as an approach to prevent contracting Covid as far as I am aware.

No, it won't stop you from getting it but other research shows that those with higher Vit D levels do better at fighting it.

Low Vit D levels have a higher rate of ICU in those that go to hospital

It is free and easy or we can supplement, it is still cheap and works on all Upper Respiratory infections so it has always been a no brainer for those who know and understand immunity support

 

[qldfrog]

There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
You can select stats by state.
In the case of NSW,
There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219 (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
So in NSW at least, you have a 1.6% chance of ending up in ICU, and 0.9% chance of ending up on a ventilator.
One of the stats that jumped out at me was that the percentage of both full and partial vaxed people in ICU has gone from 16% a week ago to 26%as reported today. That is significantly higher than I would have expected, even given that the number of ICU patients vaxed will go up as the total percentage of people goes up.
However, that increase is much higher than I would have expected.

The figures for Victoria read that of the 5,000 odd cases, 207 or 4.1% were hospitalised, 56 or 1.1% were in ICU, and 40 or 0.8% were on ventilators. Interestingly, in Victoria at least, zero patients in ICU were vaxed (either one or two doses).
I wish I could explain this vast difference between Vic and NSW for Vaxed patients in ICU, but of the top of my head can't think of reason to explain this big difference.
But it does show how Victoria, after a disastrous start, has managed to improve their efficacy of treatment.
NSW has had 282 deaths from their 50,000 odd cases, a mortality rate of 0.6.
Thanks to the 800 + deaths from Victorias first round of Covid, Victoria has had 830 deaths from 28,000 cases, a mortality rate of 3.
This has improved significantly since that first round.
Mick

Isn't it scary that nsw has not been able to learn how to treat cases properly from obviously not only OS experience, but also just Victoria' next door
I hoped doctors would learn from wurooe experience.
putting people on ventilation is BAD. A last resort. But good for gov propaganda..scare the **** out of the public and increases death rate..double win....

 

[qldfrog]

People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.

Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.

Last part about the jab or the virus?

Ooohh both..
Where i join you is that i think both virus and jab do what you quote at the end.
so maybe I am not worse off with the jab than catching the virus.
Just maybe at my age and the reason got my first az shot as needed to one day ? be able to get out of this country
But not so sure now, the experience from my family who caught the actual virus is similar to my jab , but they fully recovered.i am not 100% yet
no 20y old with heart damaged with covid..well not many, i am sure you can always find a poor bugger Whereas with Pfizer...
So if you are young.run..do not get the jab is definitely my advice and should be any ethical doctor ones.
After,well ethics and medecines.....

 

[qldfrog]

Certainly not disagreeing with your view. I have, however, noticed a trend which has been building for some time. It was quiet at first but the clamour is getting louder and it's coming in some cases from small business operators. Obviously it's only anecdotal but some I've spoken to are really p***** off with those hesitant to get vaccinated. One I know let go one of her staff who did not wish to be vaccinated - "I'm already struggling to keep going and I don't need more stress and possible OH&S liability."

Whether or not that was the correct decision is not for me to say but it does appear to me there is a changing work/social dynamic at play here.

A quiet achiever of propaganda and repression dictature.
A short stay in China with a mention of Tien amen square would quickly show you how the above works...
No surprise

 

[basilio]

COVID illnesses are rapidly taking over medical resources in the US. Australia is only a few weeks behind.

The physical and emotional pressure on hospitals and ICU staff is taking a heavy toll on doctors, nurses and all heath care employees. From a purely self interested POV we want to have access to hospitals if/when something goes wrong with us or a loved one. If these hospitals are at bursting point with ill COVID patients that won't happen. That's not theoretical. It is happening everywhere COVID has got out of control.

The discussion about when we can open up our communities centres around the risks of steeply increasing infections and illnesses amongst unvaccinated people. Vaccinated people can catch COVID but to date the severity of the illnesses is far less.

Two stories on this that are worth considering. The first one is Sydney now. The second one reflects the US experience which is what happens when COVID does get out of control.

Inside COVID ICU: 'No-one wants to know how bad the situation really is'

Behind the daily case numbers, this is what our frontline health workers see day in, day out — but be warned, it's confronting, grim and exhausting.

www.abc.net.au

Doctors treating unvaccinated Covid patients are succumbing to compassion fatigue

Exhausted healthcare workers admit they feel demoralized as the fourth surge spreads across the US

www.theguardian.com