Australian Defence Discussion

[Calanen]

300 billion as part of a 20 year plan...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25417217-5012587,00.html

I'm not sure we need all of the things mentioned. Perhaps Kennas or some of the others who have served could give a more realsitic view.

We easy spend that much to keep the welfare underclass living in free accommodation to watch the cricket and drink beer while the rest of us go to work. About 60 % of the annual Australian budget goes on welfare, amongst the highest in the world. If we got all of those people off the couch and working, taxes would be very very low in Australia.

The point being, that we already spend far more than this on useless things - and defence is useful and a very good investment in our future.

 

[Calliope]

It is a 20 year wish list. We can't even afford an efficient border protection service. Rudd is full of grandiose plans, none of which will come to fruition in his time.

Who does Rudd want to protect us from? Certainly not the Chinese. If they had militant designs on us there is nothing we could do about it. But why should they bother? They can buy us out.

If we have billions to spare it should be spent on our greatest enemy...water shortage.

 

[metric]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25418503-421,00.html


Rudd Government considering sending youth unemployed to boot camps


By Glenn Milne
The Sunday Telegraph
May 03, 2009 12:01am

Boot camps for youth unemployed considered
Cabinet sources say plan has backing
Defence reportedly opposed to idea

THE Federal Government wants military-style "boot camp" training overseen by the Department of Defence for Australia's unemployed youth, Cabinet sources confirmed last night.

The Sunday Telegraph has learned Canberra is keen on the move to stop the loss of a generation to welfare as a result of the recession.

It would also instil self discipline and structure into the lives of problem young job seekers. Cabinet sources confirmed to The Sunday Telegraph yesterday the plan had been promoted at "the highest levels", but it's unclear whether it will make the final cut for the Budget on Tuesday week.

In a Budget move aimed at avoiding losing a generation to welfare dependency, the Government will also offer the young jobless an extra $2000 in benefits in return for training.

Youth unemployment is expected to spike in the recession.


Key figures in Defence are fiercely resisting the idea of being responsible for training the unemployed and sources said the "unworkable" program could include weapons training.

 

[Calanen]

Rudd Government considering sending youth unemployed to boot camps


By Glenn Milne
The Sunday Telegraph
May 03, 2009 12:01am

Boot camps for youth unemployed considered

Cabinet sources say plan has backing

Defence reportedly opposed to idea

I can tell you that almost overwhelmingly, people in the defence forces do not support the idea. Why you may ask? Because the Australian military, especially the army, is a very elite group that want to be there and take their jobs very seriously. They do not want to be the prison guards for a group of slackers. From the discussions I have had with them, if they are going to be made to take it on, they want the ability to impose brutal discipline to keep order. No holiday camp where people get to go on A Current Affair and say the Big Bad Army Sergeant was mean to me.

I wouldn't just make the young unemployed work, I'd make everyone work who could. Even if you cant walk you can answer a government hotline.

 

[Sean K]

I can tell you that almost overwhelmingly, people in the defence forces do not support the idea.

....

From the discussions I have had with them,

LOL You've had discussions with the entire Defence Forces?

However, I do agree that regular defence force will have a negative opinion of conscrips. Volunteers have much more credibility. I base that on attitudes to WW history, and Regular Army attitudes to General Reserve.

Maybe your sample is representative however.

 

[Calanen]

Re: New defence white paper

Spend some time with an M4 and you will never want to touch steyr again,...

If steyr were comparible to M4 weapons then surly the SAS would use the steyr to,... But they don't M4 is the standard rifle for the SAS and the 4RAR commando's.

It's a rolls royce gun, but an M4 has to be cleaned all the time, constantly stripped and cleaned to make sure that none of its many intricate parts gum up. If you have time to do that, cool, perhaps you don't in a combat situation. That adjustable stock on the M4 eventually breaks and unhelpfully slides in and out without locking too.

The AK47 and variants are a much more reliable gun, even if not as accurate as the M4 and M16 - but political reality means we can never use former soviet weapons. They would be the most sensible thing to equip our troops with. Cheap, plenty of spare parts, don't mind desert or jungle weather.

 

[Calanen]

LOL You've had discussions with the entire Defence Forces?

Well when does anyone ever poll every single member of any organisation. I do have good access to get a feel for what the view is. I could say I have spoken to xx or yy - but then people would just flame away about that too.

However, I do agree that regular defence force will have a negative opinion of conscrips. Volunteers have much more credibility. I base that on attitudes to WW history, and Regular Army attitudes to General Reserve.

Maybe your sample is representative however.

From high up as the view further down. If there are any serving soldiers who want to post otherwise, let's hear it. I'm expecting they will be in the minority.

I cant say who I know or how I know on this forum. And it wouldnt be believed anyway. Any who feel they know better however, please speak up.

 

[Sean K]

I do have good access

Who?

 

[sam76]

Your avatar scares me Kennas..

 

[Sean K]

Your avatar scares me Kennas..

Yours is scaring me more sam. Just poking fun..

 

[sam76]

Get some Soul Glo inta ya!

 

[Largesse]

nice pipes Kennas

/flexxxxxxxxxx

 

[ColB]

Originally posted by Callanen

"I can tell you that almost overwhelmingly, people in the defence forces do not support the idea. Why you may ask? Because the Australian military, especially the army, is a very elite group that want to be there and take their jobs very seriously..."

Originally Posted by kennas
LOL You've had discussions with the entire Defence Forces?

Callanen, perhaps you could have said "people in the defence forces would not support the idea. It doesn't alter the fact that sheer logic would dictate that most defence personnel would not want to work with people who don't wan't to be there regardless of whether they were polled or not.

 

[Sean K]

Cripes,

Sheridan likes the plan...



A battle of words
Greg Sheridan, Foreign editor | May 02, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE defence white paper is an almost incoherent blancmange of oddly unharmonised flavours.

It reads like a biblical commentary in which 50 Talmudic scholars, each representing an alternative school of thought, have been allowed to write alternative sentences.

The internal contradictions in the document are so staggering it looks like sentences have been bolted on almost at random, like pieces in a Meccano set manipulated by a two-year-old.

 

[Calliope]

Callanen, perhaps you could have said "people in the defence forces would not support the idea. It doesn't alter the fact that sheer logic would dictate that most defence personnel would not want to work with people who don't wan't to be there regardless of whether they were polled or not.

Hi Col,

Strangely enough in the WW1 referendum on conscription the majority of the AIF voted in favour.

But those at the work face, the troops actually doing the fighting, voted against it. When you are in a dangerous situation you want people beside you who have had a choice.

 

[sting]

Hi Col,

Strangely enough in the WW1 referendum on conscription the majority of the AIF voted in favour.

But those at the work face, the troops actually doing the fighting, voted against it. When you are in a dangerous situation you want people beside you who have had a choice.

Calliope, From what I have come to understand these boot camp trainee's will not be put in the front line but yes before you say it the same was said about the Kokoda Soldiers..... Reserve force soldiers untrained ill equiped and sent over as garrison troops, these same troops went a long way to dispel the image of second class soldiering performed by Chocco's...Chocolate soldiers named because they were said to melt in the heat of battle.

The second class syndrome is still to a minor extent prevelant I to am guilty when I was a full time member. But this view is in a minority and gradually disappearing due the the excellent capabilities of those GRES who have served and are serving besides ARA members.

As far as the Boot camp proposal i am 100%in favour of it if used to instill discipline, self worth, adaptability,respect and basic life skills. Something that todays youth sady lack. What I would like to see is that basic trade skills be taught as well on this boot camp to try and instill an interest to take on an apprenticeship either in the Defence Force or in civvie street.

I have spoken to a few fellow officers who like me have teenage children who are all in favour of a form of boot camp to get the yobbo's off the street. I even asked a mate who i have served with who is a nam vet who is totally against conscription is in favour of getting kids off the street in some form of "Bad Lads Army".

For those who are unaware Bad Lads Army is a British youth offender program that takes convicted youth out of the public arena and puts them into a replica WW2 training camp to try to instill a sense of pride and discipline. This is run and staffed by ex forces personnel.

As far as taking hard pressed ARA soldiers away from their tasks to train and supervise these kids I agree that there time is better spent elsewhere but
a similar national program could be run here using a combination of retired senior officers and nco's as well as even possibly Cadet officers.. before you go there yes i agree cadet officers are a different breed entirely but are capable of controlling large numbers of teenagers. Disused Defence Facilities could be used to house and train these boot camp trainee's. And as far as trade skill training in sure if to speak to those soldiers who daily are tasked with checking vehicles for servicability they will gladly accept all help possible.

I await the comments regarding my suggestions


UBIQUE

 

[moXJO]

Lets face it defense force recruiting and retention isn't the best. At least the possibility of a few converts (from boot camps) who find out they like the lifestyle may eventuate. And I think this may be the thinking from the government. A forced try at a lifestyle you may actually like.

Seems to coincide with our massive spending plan on defense so we need someone to man all this stuff.

 

[Julia]

Calliope, From what I have come to understand these boot camp trainee's will not be put in the front line but yes before you say it the same was said about the Kokoda Soldiers..... Reserve force soldiers untrained ill equiped and sent over as garrison troops, these same troops went a long way to dispel the image of second class soldiering performed by Chocco's...Chocolate soldiers named because they were said to melt in the heat of battle.

The second class syndrome is still to a minor extent prevelant I to am guilty when I was a full time member. But this view is in a minority and gradually disappearing due the the excellent capabilities of those GRES who have served and are serving besides ARA members.

As far as the Boot camp proposal i am 100%in favour of it if used to instill discipline, self worth, adaptability,respect and basic life skills. Something that todays youth sady lack. What I would like to see is that basic trade skills be taught as well on this boot camp to try and instill an interest to take on an apprenticeship either in the Defence Force or in civvie street.

I have spoken to a few fellow officers who like me have teenage children who are all in favour of a form of boot camp to get the yobbo's off the street. I even asked a mate who i have served with who is a nam vet who is totally against conscription is in favour of getting kids off the street in some form of "Bad Lads Army".

For those who are unaware Bad Lads Army is a British youth offender program that takes convicted youth out of the public arena and puts them into a replica WW2 training camp to try to instill a sense of pride and discipline. This is run and staffed by ex forces personnel.

As far as taking hard pressed ARA soldiers away from their tasks to train and supervise these kids I agree that there time is better spent elsewhere but
a similar national program could be run here using a combination of retired senior officers and nco's as well as even possibly Cadet officers.. before you go there yes i agree cadet officers are a different breed entirely but are capable of controlling large numbers of teenagers. Disused Defence Facilities could be used to house and train these boot camp trainee's. And as far as trade skill training in sure if to speak to those soldiers who daily are tasked with checking vehicles for servicability they will gladly accept all help possible.

I await the comments regarding my suggestions


UBIQUE

If it were to work as you have suggested, then I'm all for it.
For several years I've worked with a Youth Mentoring programme in high schools on a one-to-one basis with students deemed at risk of failing to complete their education and/or go forward to any meaningful occupation.

Almost without exception these teenagers are lazy, uncommunicative, and uninterested in anything other than avoiding school, alcohol, and working off their excess testosterone via aggressive behaviour.

Their parents are usually the role models that have perpetuated this behaviour and have no ambition for their offspring other than to see then also sign on for the dole.

So a bit of enforced discipline and respect surely couldn't fail to improve the outlook for these kids, if there are defence people prepared to take them on.

 

[Calanen]

If it is to happen, those conscripted need to be paid just as anyone else would be for the work they do. The drill sergeants need to have the ability to deal with them using military justice in the same way any other recruit is dealt with, no molly coddling or powder puff boot camp. Also backed up with the severest punishment for those who seek to dodge it, that is, two years in the military or two years in jail if you don't go.

The legislation should state also that conscripts can only be used in the defence of Australia proper, not for overseas expeditions except on a volunteer basis.

In addition to getting these people working, I would get every person sitting in a housing commission home that can walk working too. Even if you cant walk, you can answer government telephones. I would also, get every prisoner working - adopting the California system - for every day you work competently - one day is removed from your sentence. Have the inmates doing roadwork under guard in remote locations, or picking fruit, or chipping cotton. It shouldnt be that the inmates get to watch TV and lift weights to better assault the public when they leave prison.

Australia needs to focus on self-reliance. And to do that, we need everyone working.

 

[sting]

If it were to work as you have suggested, then I'm all for it.
For several years I've worked with a Youth Mentoring programme in high schools on a one-to-one basis with students deemed at risk of failing to complete their education and/or go forward to any meaningful occupation.

Almost without exception these teenagers are lazy, uncommunicative, and uninterested in anything other than avoiding school, alcohol, and working off their excess testosterone via aggressive behaviour.

Their parents are usually the role models that have perpetuated this behaviour and have no ambition for their offspring other than to see then also sign on for the dole.

So a bit of enforced discipline and respect surely couldn't fail to improve the outlook for these kids, if there are defence people prepared to take them on.

Julia I agree we are breeding a race of dole bludgers. Before you all start yes I agree not everyone on unemployment is a dole bludger especially with the rising unemployment but there are some who can not be called anything but Dole Bludgers. My son befriended a kid on his football team whose parents we met. This is a family of 3 generations of being on the Dole. The grandparents were on the dole for 20+ yrs, the boys parents also have never worked a day in their lives with the exception of community service. The boys uncle moved to a country town that had no employment prospects because in his words he was "sick of having to get up before lunch to go to interviews that he was sent to". Now the 3rd generation children are either single mothers or on the dole. This boy who still see's my son is now 21 and has never had a job. this scenario is sure to be passed on for generations to come unless we as a community say enough is enough and send these kids off to some sort of compulsory training ...who knows the kids might enjoy the feeling of getting up and doing something productive.


And calanen, as far as payment the dole should go a long way to cover this, given that they would be fed clothed and housed a reduced dole payment should be sufficient. Especially given that each course would only be at a max of 6 to 12 months to allow all those who are not going on to higher learning or even exclude those who obtain an apprenticeship.

The more i think about this scheme the more i like it. Not only does it instill worthwhile values but it will get homeless kids off the street, reduce drugs and alchohol, and reduce crime. The only downsides that I can see will be civil libitarians screaming slavery, Possible wannabe do gooders crying out for equal pay claims and the biggest whinge of all from those bludgers that dont get out of bed until after lunch. Another downside is the banning of bastardisation that would quickly wake some of these kids up. I went through basic in the late 70's and the ritual of rough justice administered by nco's and by your own recruits helped wake you up. I admit some punishments may have gotten out of hand although I personally had never seen it. but for someone to have their equipment thrown in the mud because they constantly failed to properly clean it didnt hurt anyone with the exception of possible sleep depravitation to reclean everything before tomorrows inspection. I still remember one white glove nazi who on a daily basis would show us a different place to check for dust each day the top of door architraves one day and the bottom of locker door another he never went back for weeks the places he had shown us as he knew that it would be spotless. And those of you on here who went through basic in the same era who can forget the welcoming toothpaste ritual.

Why this scheme WONT be introduced.. te Pollies fear of political suicide. The youth of todays boot camps are tomorrows voters.

UBIQUE