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How many and where?
At what cost?
Aside from that, ships and jet fighters have pretty good defence systems against long range attacks.
Defence Space Command
- Thread starter Dona Ferentes
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At what cost?
Aside from that, ships and jet fighters have pretty good defence systems against long range attacks.
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Well if you want to fight on our soil, then I take it you are prepared to accept untold thousands of civilian casualties like what is happening in Ukraine ?
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Rather off topic now.
I am all for getting value for money by investing in the future of warfare, not the past. Satellites will do very little in that regard as most of what is needed is already up there and, by way of example, proven to be of little overall assistance to either the USA or Russia.
Craton
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So then, a recap of sorts.
From what I've gleaned re. military satellites.
Firstly, there's the so-called Outer Space Treaty banning nukes in space.
Back in 1967 there was a ratification of international treaties banning the deployment of weapons of mass destruction on satellites in orbit.
So is the DSC to do with Space Warfare and protecting space assets as per the above Wikipedia link?
Then there's this from India's SP's Aviation re. military satellite uses:
Do we have military satellites in space?
From The Australian article 30 Oct 2021:
Space Australia's 10 Nov 2021 article re. the JP9102 tender which closed Jan 2022:
All this seems mute if (you can DYOR on the below quote from an online source):
Call it "word salad" or whatever you like @rederob.
My conclusion is that the DSC is a tactical part of a larger defence strategy that few are actually privy to.
From what I've gleaned re. military satellites.
Firstly, there's the so-called Outer Space Treaty banning nukes in space.
Back in 1967 there was a ratification of international treaties banning the deployment of weapons of mass destruction on satellites in orbit.
So is the DSC to do with Space Warfare and protecting space assets as per the above Wikipedia link?
Then there's this from India's SP's Aviation re. military satellite uses:
Do we have military satellites in space?
From The Australian article 30 Oct 2021:
Space Australia's 10 Nov 2021 article re. the JP9102 tender which closed Jan 2022:
All this seems mute if (you can DYOR on the below quote from an online source):
Call it "word salad" or whatever you like @rederob.
My conclusion is that the DSC is a tactical part of a larger defence strategy that few are actually privy to.
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Very doubtful.
You only need to read the tender you linked to in order to work out we have bugger all capability in space aside from shared resources.
As I said earlier, put billions into DSTG to develop our sovereign satellite capabilities if that's important.
However, until someone can prove that satellites have some special ability to win wars this seems a total waste of money.
The key role of satellites is communications, and from a military perspective its ISR. However, as well proven via the Ukraine War, ISR can now be gathered in real time by hundreds of drones ranging in size from those that fit in backpacks to Bayraktar TB2s, and be acted upon instantly rather than rely on a cumbersome command structure.
Craton
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Exactomondo, hence the need to have our own.
Understood. So the question is, apart from word salading the electorate and trying to garner votes, why create the DSC?
I still think it's part of a bigger picture.
Hmm, satellites having special abilities to win wars eh?
Of course satellites would be a adjunct and just another aid to win the fight. To think that satellites alone can win wars without all the military commands working on multiple fronts and in tandem, nah, doesn't compute.
However, I believe that having the satellite adjunction of our own is not such a silly idea.
Yep, military satellites provides ISR. What else?
Just a point or two on drones @rederob
If the weather (rain, fog, smoke, wind, snow, hail etc) is inclement and inclement for an extended period of time, drones might not be all that useful. Correct?
Given the above scenario, how effective would said drones be?
Tell me again how much flight time compared to a satellite do drones have?
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I suggest you re-read the tender - we will not have our own via sovereign capability.
One that neither you nor the government can explain!
Again, this does not correlate with real world events. Neither Russian nor American satellite dominance allowed them to defeat the Taliban (a somewhat backward mob in technological terms) and it certainly does not explain what is happening in Ukraine.
No, commercial satellites can do this. Anyone can contract to use them - ie. what is already up there - for those purposes.
No, drones with FLIR are not affected by smoke and dust, but have diminished capability in rain/snow. That said, shop bought DJI drones could fly low enough to be barely affected. Drone teams, or just single operators, do not need to worry about an overarching command structure to constrain their field activities, so are nimble and timely.
Real world drone coverage can be comprehensive, and significantly better targeted than satellites as there are not thousands in space. However, the point here is that commercial satellites can and do support what any government/military needs in terms of communications and ISR.
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Not really because these satellites belong to overseas nations, and the satellites themselves are not exactly on Australian territory.
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China bent out of shape because Australia is going to get hypersonic missiles, when they think they should be the only ones in our region with them. ?
au.news.yahoo.com
As part of Australia's AUKUS pact with the UK and the US, a new agreement has been made for cooperation on hypersonic weapons and electronic warfare capabilities, the nations' leaders revealed on Wednesday.
www.space.com
'HIGH ALERT': China lashes Australia over major military move
Beijing has warned countries in the Asia-Pacific to be on high alert after Australia's decision to invest in hypersonic missiles. Find out more.
As part of Australia's AUKUS pact with the UK and the US, a new agreement has been made for cooperation on hypersonic weapons and electronic warfare capabilities, the nations' leaders revealed on Wednesday.
China successfully tested hypersonic weapon in August: report
Chinese officials deny the allegation, claiming the mission tested reusable spacecraft tech.
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First, Russia has hypersonic missiles, but not China.China bent out of shape because Australia is going to get hypersonic missiles, when they think they should be the only ones in our region with them. ?
'HIGH ALERT': China lashes Australia over major military move
Beijing has warned countries in the Asia-Pacific to be on high alert after Australia's decision to invest in hypersonic missiles. Find out more.
As part of Australia's AUKUS pact with the UK and the US, a new agreement has been made for cooperation on hypersonic weapons and electronic warfare capabilities, the nations' leaders revealed on Wednesday.
China successfully tested hypersonic weapon in August: report
Chinese officials deny the allegation, claiming the mission tested reusable spacecraft tech.
Second, Dutton has spent his time in office cancelling existing contracts worth billions and entering new contracts that have lead times that make our nation comparatively worse off in the interim. These points were laid bare in a Senate hearing yesterday.
Meanwhile the Ukranians have this to show:
And our Defence overlords said this at the Senate hearing:
Senator WONG: It might be that I'm just not smart enough to follow, but I didn't understand your answer to why you didn't need SkyGuardian. Can you tell me how many armed drones we currently have?
Vice Adm. Johnston: We have plenty of platforms that are armed. We do not have drones that are armed. The context of my answer to your question was that the types of capabilities that SkyGuardian provides can be mostly replicated through other means, and we believed it was the best of the choices in order to find the money that was needed to enhance a cyberprogram.
Senator Wong: So we have no armed drones?
Vice Adm. Johnston: No. But we have many armed platforms that deliver a similar capability.
We are killing chooks and stealing their eggs to put in other baskets.
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There is a belief China has hypersonic missiles they would be silly not to have and they aren't silly. Also I would be surprised if the U.S doesn't have them, we were testing them in 2009.
Information the general public is privy to is the tip of the iceberg, as to what is really happening, to think someone on a public forum would have the knowledge of the U.S arsenal and if so be posting it up on a share forum is a bit rich. ?
And from 2009
SCRAM JET TESTING UNDERWAY AT WOOMERA
See 2010 test plans here: HYPERSONIC SCRAMJET TESTS FOR OUTBACK SOUTH AUSTRALIA Posted on March 8, 2010 by Coober Pedy Regional Times (2009) Two HIFiRE launches are scheduled to be conducted in th…
cooberpedytimes.com
Another article on the current programme, just so people realise we aren't that far behind the game.
Faster than a Speeding Bullet - Australian Air Power Today
The future of Australia’s air combat capability is being realised in a joint venture between the US Defense Department and the Australian Defence Force.
australianairpowertoday.com.au
The existing French sub contracts hadn't even got off the drawing board and where going to be absolutely useless before the drawings were complete.
Secondly, in the interim there would be every likely hood the U.S would deploy nuclear subs to our area, if the need arose.
During my employment at a U.S communications base, there was always U.S naval ships carrying out exercises in the vicinity, it would be naive to think that we would be left undefended until the subs we ordered were built, it isn't like buying a car. ?
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Craton
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This article proves every point I have made to date. Here's one point from it:
"Aerorozvidka custom-builds or modifies off-the-shelf consumer drones to work in a military context and drop bombs on Russian vehicles under the cover of night."
As pointed out in post #171 above, Australia recently discontinued its program for drones which are armed. To say it was a stupid decision is being generous.
And as I keep asking, why do we need a neutered space command when there is this happening today in the real world of conflict:
"The unit also uses Elon Musk's Starlink satellite system, which helps ensure connectivity even if there are internet or power outages."
Because we have an old guard making many decisions about defence directions and funding, and a present government that is, frankly, bereft of sensibilities on military matters, we get a brain fart idea for a Space Command. The future of winnable wars in the 21st century lies in AI and robotics. What is really interesting in this regard is Musk's industry leadership in autonomous driving (which incorporates AI), and robotics. I doubt it's intentional in terms of being able to be repurposed to military use. But relatively cheap and small - and therefore difficult to hit - set and forget loitering armed drones that will only strike preordained targets and not be susceptible to jamming, are powerful attacking weapons when used in large number, and defensive weapons in single use for urban warfare.
You might think that Ukraine's success with Bayraktar drones, which are in a different category to those repurposed off the shelf, would have led to a government announcement on armed drone sovereign capability. No such luck with Scomo who is more interested in marketing a message - strong defence - than delivering anything practical to back it.
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A month later we see this headline:
"Disbelief at decision to cut $1.3bn drone program"
Excerpt:
"The move to cancel the SkyGuardian project has been described as “mind-bogglingly stupid” by Australian Strategic Policy Institute former executive director Peter Jennings, who warns the decision to cancel the program makes Australia appear like “clueless amateurs” in the eyes of the US, at a time when we are persuading them to share their nuclear-propulsion technology."
Aren't we lucky to have such a competent team making decisions about defence spending!
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Remember we were talking about scram jets and the ability to be hypersonic in the atmosphere, I mentioned the U.S has been working on this at Woomera, well here's an interesting tidbit.
US adds air-breathing hypersonic missiles to its arsenal
The U.S. Air Force has finally chosen the HACM, hypersonic air-breathing missile, to be added to its arsenal. The Southern Cross Integrated Flight Research Experiment (SCIFiRE), a joint U.S. and Australian research, helped design the first-of-its-kind missile.
interestingengineering.com
Russia, from what I've read, doesn't have air breathing and I'm pretty sure China doesn't either.
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That post was last year year, at last a few snippets of where the U.S are these days with the scram jets.As I posted years ago, we were testing hypersonic missiles in the 1990's at Woomera, if people think that all that was just shelved, they are down at the end of the garden with the fairies, the dwarves and rob. ?
This is from the bloody SMH 2009
https://www.smh.com.au/national/hypersonic-aircraft-flies-over-woomera-20090522-bhw5.html
Scramjet - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
All of a sudden China and Russia crack it and it's news.
