Defence Space Command

[rederob]

And your point is?
If we are buying equipment be it subs, surface to air missiles or any other type of equipment that requires satellite connection, why wouldn't we install equipment to achieve that?
Or do we just buy the military equipment as an ornament? I don't understand your issue.

Very little requires satellite intervention nowadays, so that's my point.
If you want to hit a target and it's not line of sight visible, then look it up on Google Earth, then Street View. The commercially available information from satellites is nowadays class leading and, as I posted earlier, even used by the White House in Press Briefings.

 

[sptrawler]

Very little requires satellite intervention nowadays, so that's my point.
If you want to hit a target and it's not line of sight visible, then look it up on Google Earth, then Street View. The commercially available information from satellites is nowadays class leading and, as I posted earlier, even used by the White House in Press Briefings.

I'm sure the U.S/U.K don't use google earth, if you think that the general public is aware of the guidance and communication systems that the military are using, you are being a bit naive IMO.
I worked for the U.S navy back in the early 1980's at a submarine communication base, it was superseded way back then, the technology now would be far more advanced than is common knowledge IMO.
For the media to have a satellite link up with the white house, they would be using open source equipment, the military wouldn't be using zoom to transfer secure encrypted data , but hey you can believe what you like, just don't expect me to accept it as being gospel.

 

[rederob]

I'm sure the U.S/U.K don't use google earth, if you think that the general public is aware of the guidance and communication systems that the military are using, you are being a bit naive IMO.

I agree.
But at the risk of repeating myself satellites, are insignificant in guiding a fired missile to target.
However, satellite imagery will not change irrespective of being military or commercial. Moreover. some commercial imagery is superior.

I worked for the U.S navy back in the early 1980's at a submarine communication base, it was superseded way back then, the technology now would be far more advanced than is common knowledge IMO.

Pine Gap is where it is for a very good reason; nowhere near the coast, unlike Exmouth.

I'm still wondering what the DSC will command. At the moment the DSC looks like Australia Post without a motorbike!

 

[sptrawler]

I agree.
But at the risk of repeating myself satellites, are insignificant in guiding a fired missile to target.
However, satellite imagery will not change irrespective of being military or commercial. Moreover. some commercial imagery is superior.

How would you know, what imagery equipment, the U.S defence department use?

Pine Gap is where it is for a very good reason; nowhere near the coast, unlike Exmouth.

There are a lot more stations than Pine Gap.

I'm still wondering what the DSC will command. At the moment the DSC looks like Australia Post without a motorbike!

I'm sure the defence department will give you a briefing and update.

 

[rederob]

How would you know, what imagery equipment, the U.S defence department use?

The same reason you don't know I don't

There are a lot more stations than Pine Gap.

Yes, in the mid 90s I did a review of aspect of Queensland's Army, Navy and Airforce capabilities when I worked for Defence.

I'm sure the defence department will give you a briefing and update.

It would be the other way around. The brightest bloke I met when working in Defence was a Wing Commander as comparatively few in the military are "intuitive."

 

[sptrawler]

The same reason you don't know I don't

But your saying some commercial imagery is superior, if you don't know it makes your quote pointless and pure speculation.

Yes, in the mid 90s I did a review of aspect of Queensland's Army, Navy and Airforce capabilities when I worked for Defence.

And I'm quite sure that the U.S capability is far beyond that of Queensland 1990's, I actually didn't realise Queensland had an Army, Navy and Airforce, there you go.
I thought they were just Australian forces deployed there.

It would be the other way around. The brightest bloke I met when working in Defence was a Wing Commander as comparatively few in the military are "intuitive."

I'm sure you would love to address the heads of military, going by the way you love to address us. ?
Whether they would find it enlightening, or just throw you out, is another question.

 

[rederob]

But your saying some commercial imagery is superior, if you don't know it makes your quote pointless and pure speculation.

Because it covers more types of imagery and is more recent than stuff America put up decades ago. That's why the US military uses it.

And I'm quite sure that the U.S capability is far beyond that of Queensland 1990's, I actually didn't realise Queensland had an Army, Navy and Airforce, there you go.

Given I was talking about where bases are located you are shooting the wrong horse.

I'm sure you would love to address the heads of military, going by the way you love to address us.

I have in the past, several times. Let me know if you want me to PM a letter I received after I presented a written Report.

 

[sptrawler]

Because it covers more types of imagery and is more recent than stuff America put up decades ago. That's why the US military uses it.

But you've already stated two posts back that you don't know what the U.S military use, maybe best to have a lie down.

Given I was talking about where bases are located you are shooting the wrong horse.

Well it would have saved a bit of time and confusion, if you had said that in the post.

I have in the past, several times. Let me know if you want me to PM a letter I received after I presented a written Report.

No, just interacting on the forum is adequate, thanks anyway. ?

 

[rederob]

But you've already stated two posts back that you don't know what the U.S military use, maybe best to have a lie down.

At your age it might be a good idea to take a while longer to absorb information after you read it.
If "you don't know what I don't" know, then you might not know I do!

No, just interacting on the forum is adequate, thanks anyway. ?

After reading my posts you might finish grade school with a pass, so I am pleased.

 

[Craton]

I read that last year - I have held OEC stock for many years.
The grant barely covers the annual salary of an engineer.
And Orbital got their leg up in UAVs via America, not Australia. You might have noticed that Defence have no projects in the pipeline with Orbital and Defence treated Metal Storm similarly.

Please explain the pro as I found a lot of meaningless word salad.

I am not lobbying against a non existent "command" but, instead, querying what it will achieve.
FYI Ukraine has nothing in outer space yet is thwarting the Russian military superpower's advances. Given Russia has a massive satellite presence in space it seems reasonable to question how effective it is in supporting military engagements. This is 2022 and what's up there is incredibly advanced so why hasn't Ukraine been overrun by now?

Bwahaha, word salad, lol.

In no way do I mean to diminish the military strategy coupled with tenacity of the Ukrainian's fighting for their land.

Ukraine has not been overrun for many reasons and in no small part due, and I'll hazard a guess, to the sanctions and support provided by the West going a long way in stalling Putin's "special military ops". Further, you rederob, probably have a fairly good insight into why the Soviet satellite system has not lived up to the "incredibly advanced" moniker you have given it.
Just another guess on my part but Russian satellite tech may not be what we would expect of it.

Questions.
Did the Russian military rely on the international GPS system and if so, was access to the system denied or blocked to Putin's forces?
If not, then why hasn't the Russian air force and guided missiles not dominated and thus succeed in the supposed 2 week op?

To have a reliable and stable GPS system, ground to air comms etc is good a reason as any to have our very own DSC. From what I've gleaned we are very apt at small swarm/hive type satellite technology. Coupled with our large land mass, a highly efficient satellite system across a vast array of frequencies would be paramount not only in peace time.

One last thing, for Australia to rely solely on our security partners for intel (be it images or otherwise) would not be very prudent IMHO.

 

[rederob]

Bwahaha, word salad, lol.

Your link was to a company with no runs on the board. What are they involved in doing for Defence?

In no way do I mean to diminish the military strategy coupled with tenacity of the Ukrainian's fighting for their land.

Ukraine has not been overrun for many reasons and in no small part due, and I'll hazard a guess, to the sanctions and support provided by the West going a long way in stalling Putin's "special military ops". Further, you rederob, probably have a fairly good insight into why the Soviet satellite system has not lived up to the "incredibly advanced" moniker you have given it.
Just another guess on my part but Russian satellite tech may not be what we would expect of it.

I keep explaining the limited role satellites have in an active war beyond civilian satellite capabilities.
How did America go in Afghanistan?

Questions.
Did the Russian military rely on the international GPS system and if so, was access to the system denied or blocked to Putin's forces?
If not, then why hasn't the Russian air force and guided missiles not dominated and thus succeed in the supposed 2 week op?

Because Ukraine has a similar capability. You keep falling into the trap of thinking that satellites have some special qualities when they are being used by the military.

To have a reliable and stable GPS system, ground to air comms etc is good a reason as any to have our very own DSC. From what I've gleaned we are very apt at small swarm/hive type satellite technology.

Given we have no military satellites and DSC does not have a production ambit, tell me again what it will be commanding.

Coupled with our large land mass, a highly efficient satellite system across a vast array of frequencies would be paramount not only in peace time.

Will DSC have some magical plans for satellites that commercial satellites cannot manage?

One last thing, for Australia to rely solely on our security partners for intel (be it images or otherwise) would not be very prudent IMHO.

If you believe Australia has the means to defend itself without relying on its alliance partners then good luck with that thought.

 

[sptrawler]

If you believe Australia has the means to defend itself without relying on its alliance partners then good luck with that thought.

Well at least we are all beginning to find common ground, all we have to do now is join the dots with regard common communication equipment and we are just about there.

 

[SirRumpole]

Your link was to a company with no runs on the board. What are they involved in doing for Defence?

I keep explaining the limited role satellites have in an active war beyond civilian satellite capabilities.
How did America go in Afghanistan?

Because Ukraine has a similar capability. You keep falling into the trap of thinking that satellites have some special qualities when they are being used by the military.

Given we have no military satellites and DSC does not have a production ambit, tell me again what it will be commanding.

Will DSC have some magical plans for satellites that commercial satellites cannot manage?

If you believe Australia has the means to defend itself without relying on its alliance partners then good luck with that thought.

That's true, but we have to do our bit and be less reliant, or at least give some support to our alliance partners.

 

[sptrawler]

That's true, but we have to do our bit and be less reliant, or at least give some support to our alliance partners.

AS NATO found out from Trump, unless you pull your weight you aren't an alliance partner, you're a bludger.
Funny that sort of friendship is becoming more and more prevalent in Australia, instead of saying what can I add to the friendship, the mantra now is what can I get out of this.
Australia has become a sad shadow of its former self IMO and lost a lot of self respect, where once it was all about mucking in and getting it done, now it's about looking around to find who can do it for you.

 

[rederob]

That's true, but we have to do our bit and be less reliant, or at least give some support to our alliance partners.

Like in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan?
How did we go?

America has de facto control of Pine Gap and possibly a few other secret locations. Our support will be geographical and little else of importance to them.

There is building in Brisbane named after an American WWII general which gives some history as to how America will want to see us participate in any future conflicts.

 

[SirRumpole]

AS NATO found out from Trump, unless you pull your weight you aren't an alliance partner, you're a bludger.
Funny that sort of friendship is becoming more and more prevalent in Australia, instead of saying what can I add to the friendship, the mantra now is what can I get out of this.
Australia has become a sad shadow of its former self IMO and lost a lot of self respect, where once it was all about mucking in and getting it done, now it's about looking around to find who can do it for you.

Sort of, but the amount we spend on US weapons systems is 'doing our bit' to an extent.

 

[sptrawler]

Sort of, but the amount we spend on US weapons systems is 'doing our bit' to an extent.

Yes that comment was more of a general comment about the Australian population and the way we approach issues these days, not about our military, for a country of 25million I think our military punches well above its weight.

 

[Craton]

Your link was to a company with no runs on the board. What are they involved in doing for Defence?

Gotta start somewhere and who knows where this may lead.

I keep explaining the limited role satellites have in an active war beyond civilian satellite capabilities.
How did America go in Afghanistan?

To keep explaining the current status quo doesn't mean that the future will be the same.
I'd reckon we all know the answer to that question

Because Ukraine has a similar capability. You keep falling into the trap of thinking that satellites have some special qualities when they are being used by the military.

Given we have no military satellites and DSC does not have a production ambit, tell me again what it will be commanding.

Will DSC have some magical plans for satellites that commercial satellites cannot manage?

Hmm, no satellites eh.

If you believe Australia has the means to defend itself without relying on its alliance partners then good luck with that thought.

Now you're just trolling again.
Never said we could defend without help and I'll quote myself, "One last thing, for Australia to rely solely on our security partners for intel (be it images or otherwise) would not be very prudent IMHO."

You keep stating that the DSC has nothing to command. So what?
There was a time we didn't command an army, navy or air force. That didn't mean we should not have proceeded down the defence path.

 

[rederob]

Gotta start somewhere and who knows where this may lead.

Maybe they could give us a hint.
As I said, they fed you word salad as there is no main course.

To keep explaining the current status quo doesn't mean that the future will be the same.

The DSC not into R&D so the answer is no.

Hmm, no satellites eh.

Correct.
We "access" satellites, just like Optus would for communications.

You keep stating that the DSC has nothing to command. So what?

It's a military command structure. I have written Reports for our military so I know this was a political move as the DSC's role is of a "directorate".

As a directorate the team can serve a useful role in coordination activities.

Back to how satellites are useful. I have yet to see anyone post something that is not possible via commercial satellites beyond US DoD's GPS system. And FYI, if America ever pulled the plug on us then the Chinese could fill the void with their BeiDou system.

 

[sptrawler]

We "access" satellites, just like Optus would for communications.

It's a military command structure. I have written Reports for our military so I know this was a political move as the DSC's role is of a "directorate".

As a directorate the team can serve a useful role in coordination activities.

Back to how satellites are useful. I have yet to see anyone post something that is not possible via commercial satellites beyond US DoD's GPS system. And FYI, if America ever pulled the plug on us then the Chinese could fill the void with their BeiDou system.

What you have to remember is, in 1999 Collie had a brand new 300MW coal fired power station built, it was also built to be able to have a sister unit built alongside, now 20 years later due to technology it will be closed ASAP.
Yet 20 years ago it was state of the art, everyone was going on about how advanced and how its efficiency would change everything.
Then technology changes, renewables improves, technology improves, as it does with everything.
I guess the trick is, to keep an open mind and don't apply what was to the now.

You will probably find that military equipment has moved on also, from when we were working.

Collie Power Station is a power station in Collie, Western Australia. It is coal powered with one steam turbine that generates a total capacity of 300 megawatts of electricity. The coal is mined locally[2] from the Collie Sub-basin and is transported to the power plant by overland conveyor.

The station was commissioned in 1999 with a single 300 megawatts steam turbine.[3] Power generated by the station supplies the south-west of Australia through the South West Interconnected System (SWIS) operated by Western Power.[3][4]

In the financial year of 2008/2009, the station consumed approximately 1 million tonnes (2.2 billion pounds) of coal. Carbon Monitoring for Action estimates that, in 2009, Collie Power Station emitted 2.59 million tonnes (5.7 billion pounds) of CO2 to generate 2.3 terawatt-hours (8.3 petajoules) of electricity.[5]

In household consumer terms, this equates to 1.13 kilograms (2.5 lb) of CO2 emitted for each one kilowatt-hour (kWh), or 3.6 megajoules, of electricity produced and fed into the electricity grid.[5] That is, Collie Power Station emits slightly less CO2 per kilowatt-hour of electricity produced than nearby closing Muja Power Station (1.14 kilograms or 2.5 pounds) but more than also nearby Bluewaters Power Station (0.825 kilograms or 1.82 pounds) based on estimates for the same year.

It is interesting China criticises us for increasing our military spending, yet don't reduce theirs, weird logic IMO. Why should they worry about the miniscule amount we spend in comparison to them?

China slams 'immature' Australia over $48 billion military move

Chinese state media says Australia has chosen 'a dangerous path' with its latest move. Find out more.

au.news.yahoo.com

From the article:
The Global Times, an infamous nationalistic tabloid controlled by the Chinese Communist Party, says Australia has chosen "a dangerous path" by pursuing further military expansion.

It said its latest defence declaration "exposed its naive ambition of weaponising itself to serve the US's strategy to contain China", according to Chinese experts.
"Canberra has drifted into the maelstrom of the US strategy by spending more and more manpower and material resources, which would bring greater risks to its own country and ultimately sacrifice Australia's national interests... revealing the immaturity and lack of autonomy in Australia's foreign and defence policy," reporter Xu Keyue explained.
While Australia's defence expenditure continues to grow, Yu Lei, chief research fellow at the research centre for Pacific island countries at Liaocheng University, played down the threat the increase would have on China, pointing out to the Global Times it was minuscule in comparison to China's expenditure and was coupled with an unfavourable economic outlook.
Mr Yu accused Australia of creating unnecessary risk in the Pacific despite recent revelations China has a draft security plan with the Solomon Islands which will bring China's military to Australia's doorstep.