Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[Whiskers]

I neglected to include the link for table in previous post.
http://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliam.../pubs/bn/2012-2013/boatarrivals#_Toc347230718

For those who see the picture in graph form... and more info at above link.

Unquestionably, something has to be done to stop this corrupt boat people smuggling trade, but the answer is not as simplistic as some would wish.

Why aren't the US doing more? Is this part of the trade-off our politicians accepted, or simply did not consider when doing the free trade agreement with the US and standing by a 'mate' in going to war.

There's an ironic justice for the ignorance of those countries who came into the fold of the US for 'justifying' their revenge by war... the US became so hated by many of the refugees that they would not seek asylum there and few could easily get there anyway. It was much easier to move toward Aus and Europe. The US got it's revenge and left it's friends with the hang over.

 

[Whiskers]

That is rubbish in the same vein as spouted by idiots like Sarah Hanson-Young. The ones fleeing persecution are fleeing persecution by other Muslims; Shias fleeing from Sunnis. The Shias are not welcome in Indonesia which is 90% Sunni. That's why they encourage and assist them to move on to Australia.

The bulk of illegals attempting to get here now are from Lebanon, Iran, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, etc and have nothing to do with Australia being "party to the cause of the refugee crisis".

Those coming from Afghanistan are mainly Hazaras fleeing from the Taliban.

Perhaps you could tell me what nationalities are coming from as a result of American and Australian aggression..

You demonstrate my point by the shallowness of your understanding Calliope.

The whole point is the US led forces had no concept of the tribal and religious fabric of the region until far too much damage had been done.

They broke the hold of the Taliban and Sadam which was on face value a good thing, but like a bull in a china shop, they not only made a mess of the cultural fabric, but actively patronised some and demonised others according to their ignorant perception of them, turning countryman against countryman with a passion.

For example, they persecuted the Sunni's and baath party members for so long in the false belief that they were all die hard Saddam supporters... when in fact many joined up just because it was a prerequisite to getting on in society and getting a decent job... not a lot different in philosophy to Aus or US politics.

It stands to reason that most of the ones trying to get here are the ones the allies tended to side with.

Then as I also pointed out, once the refugee smuggler route was established, criminals and other opportunists soon took advantage of it.

 

[Calliope]

You demonstrate my point by the shallowness of your understanding Calliope.

And you, Whiskers, demonstrate the poverty of your thought processes. You harp on about Iraq when in fact Iraqi asylum seekers are a very small minority. You still not have answered my question about what nationalities you claim are fleeing the Middle East because of our aggression and your Hanson-Young belief that Australia has a moral responsibility to take them in.

 

[basilio]

Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees.

The whole point is the US led forces had no concept of the tribal and religious fabric of the region until far too much damage had been done.

 

[Calliope]

Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees.

Of course you do, as a Sarah Hanson-Young advocate, even though Whiskers can give no information on "the numbers/types of refugees", to support his Green advocacy "beliefs".

You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.

 

[drsmith]

You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.

And it will be demonstrated again now we have a Coalition government in office.

 

[drsmith]

The initial words coming out from TA's first trip to Indonesia are encouraging,

The Indonesian President has made a significant concession to Tony Abbott's demands on asylum seekers in talks in Jakarta, agreeing that Indonesia will need to make direct deals with Australia to solve the people-smuggling problem.

Until now, Indonesia's position has been that any potential policies should be dealt with at the multilateral forum, the Bali Process. Many of Mr Abbott's policies - from boat tow-backs to establishing transit ports for asylum seekers on Indonesian soil - have been considered a threat to Indonesian sovereignty.

But after meeting Mr Abbott late on Monday on his first overseas trip as Prime Minister, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono agreed the countries also needed to work one-on-one.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ks-on-boats-20130930-2uoto.html#ixzz2gQ4Gx9H5

 

[Whiskers]

And you, Whiskers, demonstrate the poverty of your thought processes. You harp on about Iraq when in fact Iraqi asylum seekers are a very small minority. You still not have answered my question about what nationalities you claim are fleeing the Middle East because of our aggression

Before push and pull 'effects' there was cause... cause always comes before effect. That's Pretty basic physics and behavioural sciences law.

Then there is time line, the ultimate arbiter of context

and your Hanson-Young belief that Australia has a moral responsibility to take them in.

Firstly, your prejudice is doing your understanding more disservice than you think you are doing to my credibility.

Secondly, I could get caught up in a sideshow, the product of your prejudice and ignorance a "Hanson-Young belief", but...

What I said is we, or rather the then government, has a legal and moral responsibly for the circumstances creating the refugee status in the first place. That's quite a different thing to your total misrepresentation of what I said.

Since you started loading up a dialogue of scientific and behavioural science with prejudice, you earnt this one.

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.”
― Albert Einstein​

and someone else said “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.”

It was common sense to shock and awe...

For your education, one of many documentaries based on wise after the fact US military debriefings and impartial bystanders.

The US army's initial assault on Iraq was meant to be a show of superior intelligence and overwhelming force. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...we-why-the-Iraqi-invasion-was-a-disaster.html

PS: Bellenuit good case in point (below) of the industry that grew from the 'common sense' of the allies.

 

[bellenuit]

A representative of Sydney's Lebanese community was interviewed on ABC NewsRadio this morning regarding the boatload of refugees that sank off Indonesia two days ago. He had recently been in the area of northern Lebanon where this group of people originated from. He said some had relatives in Australia.

He basically admitted that these were economic refugees, although he did say there had been a bomb explosion in the area recently (it is on the border with Syria). He said that it was a poor region of Lebanon with not much employment or chance of schooling. Their situation has been exasperated by an influx of Syrian refugees who are chewing the meagre welfare resources that are available to the locals as well as taking the few jobs that are available.

He said people smugglers are promoting their offerings in the area both by word of mouth and by newspaper ads. They are told that for a particular fee they can simply fly to Indonesia and then will be ferried by "ship" to Australia. It is not until they arrive at the "ship" at the Indonesia port that they find out that it is just a leaky rickety old boat. It appears also that in this case they were supplied with fake Syrian passports on boarding.

 

[Calliope]

Before push and pull 'effects' there was cause... cause always comes before effect. That's Pretty basic physics and behavioural sciences law.

Then there is time line, the ultimate arbiter of context



Firstly, your prejudice is doing your understanding more disservice than you think you are doing to my credibility.

Secondly, I could get caught up in a sideshow, the product of your prejudice and ignorance a "Hanson-Young belief", but...

What I said is we, or rather the then government, has a legal and moral responsibly for the circumstances creating the refugee status in the first place. That's quite a different thing to your total misrepresentation of what I said.

Since you started loading up a dialogue of scientific and behavioural science with prejudice, you earnt this one.

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.”
― Albert Einstein​

and someone else said “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.”

It was common sense to shock and awe...

For your education, one of many documentaries based on wise after the fact US military debriefings and impartial bystanders.

The US army's initial assault on Iraq was meant to be a show of superior intelligence and overwhelming force. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...we-why-the-Iraqi-invasion-was-a-disaster.html

PS: Bellenuit good case in point (below) of the industry that grew from the 'common sense' of the allies.

More waffle! waffle! waffle! and innocuous quotes. I am still waiting for you to back up your ideological beliefs with hard facts. What are the numbers and nationalities of illegals coming here now as a result of Australia's policies in the Middle East? i,e. your nonsense statement "What is strikingly absent in the current 'debate' is any responsibility for the cause of most of the boat people... the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq." How is that now causing an influx of Iranians, Lebanese, Tamils, Somalis, Burmese, Vietnamese, etc?

There is no point in harping about issues prior to 2007. The problem had been solved before your mob put the honey pot back on the table...the Green Light in the title of this thread. This discussion is about here and now.

 

[Whiskers]

You demonstrate my point well Calliope! “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” when you bombard the forum with shock and awe, 'common sense' of yours!

Here and now... Cause and effect... it's elementary, mate!

I could have an intellectual argument about what came first, the chicken or the egg, but there is nothing to argue about if you insist there is no egg just the chicken.

 

[Calliope]

You demonstrate my point well Calliope! “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” when you bombard the forum with shock and awe, 'common sense' of yours!

Here and now... Cause and effect... it's elementary, mate!

I could have an intellectual argument about what came first, the chicken or the egg, but there is nothing to argue about if you insist there is no egg just the chicken.

And you demonstrate my point well Whiskers. When you are called on to produce a few facts you chicken out. All you can do is mouth clichés and homilies and spout quotes from Google's bottomless pit.

 

[bunyip]

The ones fleeing from persecution are as a result of persecution from other Muslims or in your words, from their "brothers". Most of those on the boat that sank were Lebanese. Their own country is being over-run by Syrians fleeing from the civil war between their "brothers" in Syria.

I agree.
The primary reason there are so many refugees is that in many of their countries the fanatical Islamic religion has made life intolerable. Most of these countries have not been affected by war with the Allied forces of the west.

The reason they choose Australia is firstly because of the many attractions of our country, and secondly because that idiot Kevin Rudd and his motley government laid out the welcome mat to them by abandoning Howard’s Pacific Solution, running to their rescue and taking them to Christmas Island any time they sent out a distress call, fake or otherwise, and giving them free board and keep, free phone calls to invite their relatives to come on down, and free legal aid to fight any moves to send them home.

Now we’re seeing the left criticizing the Abbot government's decisive measures to fix the problem that remained unfixed and in fact got continually worse for six years under Labor.
I say give Abbot a fair go – he’s only been in office for three weeks or so. Save the criticism for if he fails to deliver on his promise to stop the boats. But don’t expect miracles in three weeks.
Again I remind people that Labor created this problem and had six years to get on top of it, but under their watch it just kept getting worse.

 

[Chris45]

I had zero sympathy for these good-life seeking Muslim invaders before the recent sinking ... I've now fallen into negative territory!

SBS's Dateline last night:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601751/n/Village-of-Tears

"SHEIK ALI KHODER (Translation): Yes, listen, Australia. The boat sought help and rescue and the coastguard kicked the boat out and told the boat “Go back to where you came from.” Shame on you. Shame on you. Ask for the meaning of these words. Australia, shame on you. Australia, which has been the land of dreams, freedom, humanity and justice for so long. Shame on you, that your new rulers have reached the stage of killing people and making this part of their election campaign. Is there a court of justice to try you, Australia?"

I'm lost for words!!!

 

[doctorj]

I had zero sympathy for these good-life seeking Muslim invaders before the recent sinking ... I've now fallen into negative territory!

SBS's Dateline last night:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601751/n/Village-of-Tears

"SHEIK ALI KHODER (Translation): Yes, listen, Australia. The boat sought help and rescue and the coastguard kicked the boat out and told the boat “Go back to where you came from.” Shame on you. Shame on you. Ask for the meaning of these words. Australia, shame on you. Australia, which has been the land of dreams, freedom, humanity and justice for so long. Shame on you, that your new rulers have reached the stage of killing people and making this part of their election campaign. Is there a court of justice to try you, Australia?"

I'm lost for words!!!

Unbelievable! What right do they have to hope for a better life?!

 

[basilio]

Of course you do, as a Sarah Hanson-Young advocate, even though Whiskers can give no information on "the numbers/types of refugees", to support his Green advocacy "beliefs".

You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.

Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran.

I would have thought it was a lay down misere that the disruption caused by the US through their protracted military actions was a large factor in the increase in asylum seekers overall. We just cop our share of the numbers.

 

[Calliope]

Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran.

Bas, you said "Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees."

When I asked him to produce the "numbers/types " of illegals arriving here after 2007, when Rudd gave them open slather, Whiskers backed down, because as you well know these arrivals had nothing to do with his and your ideological beliefs about USA/Australian aggression, but that the influx was due almost solely to pull factors. If you do a little research you will find the very few Iraqi illegals have come here compared withe other nationalities.

 

[Whiskers]

Bas, you said "Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees."

When I asked him to produce the "numbers/types " of illegals arriving here after 2007, when Rudd gave them open slather, Whiskers backed down, because as you well know these arrivals had nothing to do with his and your ideological beliefs about USA/Australian aggression, but that the influx was due almost solely to pull factors. If you do a little research you will find the very few Iraqi illegals have come here compared withe other nationalities.

Calliope, I didn't back down... on the contrary you ran out of rational puff with your "pull" (akin to your Pen-nouse from The Abbott thread) argument. There is an obvious connotation there, but one does not need to explain what is obvious.

While on dirty connotations, what if you visited a prostitute and got say Gonorrhea (an undesirable effect from your common sense idea of having a quick excursion into foreign territory) shortly after. You would say the prostitute caused your disease. If some years later you found you had HIV, (an effect that takes much longer to manifest) would the prostitute not still be the cause, regardless of whatever other push or pull effects you did?

 

[drsmith]

The question that comes to my mind is that what rate of weekly boat arrivals has to be achieved before Tony Abbott's critics on this policy area are silenced ?

 

[Chris45]

Unbelievable! What right do they have to hope for a better life?!

If they want a better life, they should work (and fight if necessary) to build a better life in their homelands, like our forebears did, rather than take the easier option of coming here and expecting us to accommodate them all, but then I suspect this is really all part of the Muslim's long game of Islamising the world.

http://www.aim.org/guest-column/muslim-brotherhoods-world-domination-blueprint/

Our bleeding heart socialist refugee advocates are playing right into their hands by allowing them to exploit the refugee convention and our multicultural laws so they can join their rapidly growing diaspora which will eventually see Australia become a Muslim country.

Centuries of hard work, sacrifices and suffering endured by our forebears have resulted in the society we enjoy today. Why should we be expected to take them all in and then stand by and watch as they create duplicates of the societies they're supposedly escaping from?

If they want a better life they should be prepared to make whatever changes are necessary to their ways of thinking and their religious beliefs so they can eventually live together harmoniously and build better societies for themselves AT HOME, is that expecting too much?