Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[bellenuit]

If the press release of the Indonesian Foreign minister is any indication, Bishop is clearly in denial and not on the same page, so they have a lot of back room discussions to go to get something going again.

Although I agree that the policy of buying particular boats to deter specific asylum operations and indicating that they will pay Indonesians for information that might deter boat passages was stupid, the fact that the Indonesian Foreign Minister was not on board with what Bishop had to say is not necessarily a bad thing. It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.

I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.

 

[Whiskers]

We can have bucket loads of assumptions, but until we get a couple of months data we don't have much to go on. Unless of course your'e a labor supporter, then you can just make up the biggest doom scenario you can think of.

It's more than assumptions moXJO.

It's about a number of well established scientifically proven principles of behavioural psychology that are increasingly in deficient in the application of their policy, as opposed to the principle of it that most of us endorse.

Time for another dumb criminal story...

A motorist was unknowingly caught in an automated speed trap that measured his speed using radar and photographed his car. He later received in the mail a ticket for $40 and a photo of his car. Instead of payment, he sent the police department a photograph of $40. Several days later, he received a letter from the police that contained another picture... of handcuffs. The motorist promptly sent the money for the fine.

The moral of this one goes along the lines... if you treat a strong power with contempt... you'd better be sure you hold the bigger stick, or you will be forced to capitulate.

Even if our stick is big enough to enable us to stand up to Indonesia and completely ignore them, that won't by necessity stop the boats... on the contrary, it probably guarantees less or no cooperation and even aiding the asylum seekers to pass by Indonesia to their final destination, Aus.

 

[Whiskers]

Although I agree that the policy of buying particular boats to deter specific asylum operations and indicating that they will pay Indonesians for information that might deter boat passages was stupid, the fact that the Indonesian Foreign Minister was not on board with what Bishop had to say is not necessarily a bad thing. It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.

I agree with your sentiment there bellenuit. I've dealt with the wisdom aspect in the above post.

The cigarette labelling issue is a bit different. We can implement that policy very effectively at our borders through immigration and freight check points. If only the asylum seekers would cue up at the border check points... well over time they sorta did under Labor, at Xmas Island.

Remembering the power brokers in Labor essentially welcomed the boats, but only paid a bit of lip-service to stopping them in the name of national security as in filtering out terrorists and criminals... they orchestrated a system of very organised chaos where boats were encouraged to go to Xmas Island.

What, is shaping up now is dis-organised chaos where the corrupt officials in the Indonesian government will actively assist the smugglers more in defiance and the boats will be spread far and wide all along the coast again.

Hence, the need for a bit of sensitivity, clever diplomacy and some sort of carrot to enduce a less than cooperative country to do what we want.

I've earlier mentioned they stuffed up the sensitivity part a bit, the diplomacy bit isn't going great and the carrot, financial aid is under threat by definition, from Abbotts foreign aid policy. It may take a lot more carrot now to get them back to a reasonable cooperation level.

I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.

I agree with the notion of standing up for oneself, but there is an art to it, especially if you want to continue to 'cooperate' with them. We've steadily increased cooperation with them over the years with various governments and there was nothing to indicate that wouldn't continue with the ability of federal police to operate in Indonesia.

 

[drsmith]

I agree with the notion of standing up for oneself, but there is an art to it.

You've bored me into submission.

 

[Whiskers]

You've bored me into submission.

Thank you dr.

“I'd tried to straighten him out, but there's only so much you can do for a person who thinks Auschwitz is a brand of beer.”
― David Sedaris

 

[drsmith]

A media report of one boat carrying 19 passengers arriving at Darwin. Labor, even after its record on this issue is still banging on and the Greens are up to their usual nonsense.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...of-boat-arrival-in-darwin-20130925-2udqo.html

 

[Julia]

We can have bucket loads of assumptions, but until we get a couple of months data we don't have much to go on. Unless of course your'e a labor supporter, then you can just make up the biggest doom scenario you can think of.

You're wasting your time, moXJO. Such logic has no place in the determination of the critics of the new government.

It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.

I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.

+1. For a start, the government might consider reminding Indonesia of the amount of aid they receive from Australia.

You've bored me into submission.

Or, in my case, bored me into ceasing reading the posts.

 

[moXJO]

It's more than assumptions moXJO.

It's about a number of well established scientifically proven principles of behavioural psychology that are increasingly in deficient in the application of their policy, as opposed to the principle of it that most of us endorse.

Time for another dumb criminal story...

A motorist was unknowingly caught in an automated speed trap that measured his speed using radar and photographed his car. He later received in the mail a ticket for $40 and a photo of his car. Instead of payment, he sent the police department a photograph of $40. Several days later, he received a letter from the police that contained another picture... of handcuffs. The motorist promptly sent the money for the fine.

The moral of this one goes along the lines... if you treat a strong power with contempt... you'd better be sure you hold the bigger stick, or you will be forced to capitulate.

Even if our stick is big enough to enable us to stand up to Indonesia and completely ignore them, that won't by necessity stop the boats... on the contrary, it probably guarantees less or no cooperation and even aiding the asylum seekers to pass by Indonesia to their final destination, Aus.

I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.

 

[Ves]

You're wasting your time, moXJO. Such logic has no place in the determination of the critics of the new government.

Whilst I have no interest in the current Liberal vs Labor bickering going on in this discussion - That's an interesting point.

And it has a lot of relevance. And not just in the context that you have placed it in. There have been numerous studies completed by behavioural psychologists over the years that mostly conclude that the appearance of logic / facts in a political discussion generally make the belief of the opposing side even stronger and more oppositional. As if the facts were counter-arguments to the viewpoint that they were aiding!

I have seen it play out on forums such as this one, by both the right and left time and time again. It's interesting how it works. Even those who think they are immune to it slip up, often without knowing it. We all do, in fact. There's really no such thing as objective debate - it is counter-intuitive to the human mind.

Anyone interested can do their own research on the subject.

 

[So_Cynical]

This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.

I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.

 

[drsmith]

I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.

it wouldn't surprise me if behind the scenes, our government already has the active cooperation of the Indonesian government.

Something's given the government the confidence to go for a 48hr turnaround to Manus or Nauru and the boats and there's only been 2 boats with a total of 50 passengers in the week since the government was sworn in.

- - - Updated - - -

This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.

I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.

You'll have to wait a little longer to be critical.

We're not at 50,000 yet, only 50.

 

[Whiskers]

+1. For a start, the government might consider reminding Indonesia of the amount of aid they receive from Australia.

You mean like they did Fiji... and look where that got them.

Look how many small Island nations have been bought over by foreign aid from China when Aus and others tried to dictate to hard to them.

You are still missing the point, Julia. You ought to know threats and intimidation is not the way to approach conflict resolution... let alone to start off a new relationship.

Or, in my case, bored me into ceasing reading the posts.

I'll bet you're not! You just can't resist.

Whilst I have no interest in the current Liberal vs Labor bickering going on in this discussion...

I'm glad you recognise that point... although I hope you have read enough of the forum to note that I'm not either, atm a little bit partial to National philosophy (see Barnaby Joyce for PM among other posts)

There's really no such thing as objective debate - it is counter-intuitive to the human mind.

I think I know what you mean Ves, but, let me put it this way. There is a huge difference between debate and dialogue. Don't take my word for it, but structured dialogue is a technique that expert peace makers use. As you suggest, it would be helpful for more people to research a bit more.

Secondly, ignoring the flack I'm getting from some, the objective, my critique is of the process and apparent lack of knowledge thereof by Abbott's team, as demonstrated by the adverse reactions from Indonesia, that could have been avoided with a bit more tact.

Counterintuitive - Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate: "Scientists made clear what may at first seem counterintuitive, that the capacity to be pleasant toward a fellow creature is ... hard work" (Natalie Angier).http://www.thefreedictionary.com/counterintuitive

Julia, re your theory of just leave them alone for awhile to see what they can do... there's another wise old saying; you can pray to God but you better start rowing for shore in the meantime.

While it's good to have faith, it's better to take control and do something yourself to make sure you actually get to your desired destination. That action is like shouting ahoy, 'hey you fools, you're going the wrong way' when your rescuers are blind-sighted by their own grandiosity.

 

[Whiskers]

I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.

“Science is about recognizing patterns. Everything depends on the ground rules of the observer: if someone refuses to look at obvious patterns because they consider a pattern should not be there, then they will see nothing but the reflection of their own prejudices.”
― Christopher Knight,

I could claim credit for the words, but I'll be happy if the wisdom is understood!

 

[noco]

After reading this link I could not believe how stupid Shorten can be by saying on ABC this morning that he is pro refugees.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-on-immigration/story-fnj45fvb-1226727154767

 

[drsmith]

There's nothing wrong with being pro-immigration where it's to the benefit of our nation, but pro-refugee purely as an ideological objective ?

Labor is getting more like the Greens every day. No wonder its primary support is at its lowest in 100 years.

 

[noco]

There's nothing wrong with being pro-immigration where it's to the benefit of our nation, but pro-refugee purely as an ideological objective ?

Labor is getting more like the Greens every day. No wonder its primary support is at its lowest in 100 years.

Doc, I took it as a referral to the boat people.

 

[Julia]

After reading this link I could not believe how stupid Shorten can be by saying on ABC this morning that he is pro refugees.

He said yesterday that he believes asylum seekers in community detention should have the right to work.
This, after espousing the policy of no work during the election and before.

 

[drsmith]

Doc, I took it as a referral to the boat people.

It won't be long and they'll be back on their moral high horse about how bad offshore processing is.

 

[drsmith]

If Indonesia is trying to test the Abbott Government's resolve on this, I'll suggest they might be dissapointed.

Former foreign minister Alexander Downer says Dr Natalegawa should not be "taking shots" at Australia as soon as a new government is elected.

"Let me make this point for Mr Natalegawa's benefit: Indonesian-flagged boats with Indonesian crews are breaking our laws bringing people into our our territorial waters," he told ABC's The Drum.

"This is a breach of our sovereignty and the Indonesians need to understand that instead of a lot of pious rhetoric about the Australian Government breaching their sovereignty.

"Their people, their boats, their crews are breaching our sovereignty and this is something that needs to be worked out in a mature and constructive way as it was during the Howard years.

"Indonesia has a heavy responsibility to bear in helping Australia solve this problem, not take the view that they can liberally attack the Australian Government and continue to allow their boats with their crews bringing people to our country ... breaking our laws in doing so."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-26/indonesia-says-asylum-policy-risks-damaging-relations/4983514

 

[Whiskers]

It won't be long and they'll be back on their moral high horse about how bad offshore processing is.

I saw part of an interview with the PNG foreign minister (I think it was)... seemed to be down playing the significance of a 24 hr turnaround and any issues with only short term funding allocated in the Aus budget for the PNG plan, but emphasizing they have an intergovernmental agreement with Aus for a long term, permanent arrangement to support the facility in PNG.

This deal with PNG needs to remain secure at least for the short term, otherwise it will be a devastating blow to the deterrent effect.

PS:

If Indonesia is trying to test the Abbott Government's resolve on this, I'll suggest they might be dissapointed.

Apart from the less than perfect strategy, previously discussed...who threw the first (insulting) stone... there is the little issue that people smuggling is not a crime in Indonesia.