Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[banco]

The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives.

A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.

Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.

Who are you kidding? As if you care about the "human misery that results from illegal people smuggling". You care about them not reaching Australia.

 

[noco]

Who are you kidding? As if you care about the "human misery that results from illegal people smuggling". You care about them not reaching Australia.

If you are so concerned about human misery, how many illegals are you prepared to take into your house hold?

Why don't you put your hand up and sponsor a couple of those fellows from Manus ?

 

[luutzu]

And how do you stop wars?

That was supposed to be the job of the useless UN .....THE TOOTHLESS TIGER...What have they done in the past 60 years?

There will always be wars.... religion and ethnics are the main causes....There will always be greed and jealousy.

Islamic.....Communism.....socialism....capitalism.....religion...they will always clash.

One will try to force their ideology on the others and that is when the trouble begins......Like if you don't go my way I will chop off your head......If you chop off the head of one of fellow men I will bomb the $hit out of you.

Think outside the box noco.

Like I said above, somewhere, current statecraft are based on ancient, and not so ancient, practise of having the biggest stick and use it to beat the living crap out of those that don't have one. Then take their stuff.

There are other ways to both make money, be safe, and both parties win. It's call Free Trade - until they turn it into a dirty word to represent exploitation and slavery (to a higher or lesser degree, depends on locality).

Or take Climate Change and investment into alternative sources of clean and renewable energy... Yes there are some token investment into alternative, but given the storm we're heading into... we're not in that much of a hurry to avoid it. Instead we rush headlong into it.

Take a guess at how many more hundreds of million of people will die from drought, lack of food and water, lack of shelter and healthcare... how many more hundreds of billions the richer countries will have to spend to re-engineer their infrastructure, safeguard their borders, secure water supplies etc. etc.

Anyway... it's a dream right? We've tried just the barbarians and their religion doesn't want peace. Yea, that's a new thing to say.

 

[luutzu]

If you are so concerned about human misery, how many illegals are you prepared to take into your house hold?

Why don't you put your hand up and sponsor a couple of those fellows from Manus ?

Why does anyone have to take refugees into their own home to show they're decent human being?

What the heck are our taxes for? Why do we elect representatives for?

Maybe put some of them tax dollars towards what we the people want. Too much to ask?


What is it with politicians, and some citizens, thinking that it's our job to pay them our earnings... but it's not their job to spend any of those earnings on what we want?

Safe and well equiped schools for your kids? Dream on... can't afford it. If you want it, go private.

anyway...

 

[Tink]

Off topic --

Maybe if they zoned in on teaching children how to read and write, rather than all their other 'waste of money' rubbish programs, then the parents wouldn't be leaving in droves for the private system.

Chaos in Australian Education.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6&p=903407#post903407

 

[noco]

Why does anyone have to take refugees into their own home to show they're decent human being?

What the heck are our taxes for? Why do we elect representatives for?

Maybe put some of them tax dollars towards what we the people want. Too much to ask?


What is it with politicians, and some citizens, thinking that it's our job to pay them our earnings... but it's not their job to spend any of those earnings on what we want?

Safe and well equiped schools for your kids? Dream on... can't afford it. If you want it, go private.

anyway...

The Labor Government under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd wasted $11 billion by allowing illegals to enter our country and we are still counting the cost 3 years on........How many schools and hospitals could have been built with the $11billion +? How much less interest would we now be paying?

And don't talk about the waste on pink bats and overpriced school halls.

You say what the heck are our taxes for??.......We elect politicians to handle our taxes and manage the economy with care and diligence and not go wasting it like occurred in 2007/2013 and please don't use the excuse of the GFC.

It was because you complained about the government not doing enough about human misery in detention camps that I suggested you show some sympathy and set an example amongst your leftist buddies by sponsoring one or two...take them into your house and show some good spirit......If you all got together you might even shame the government for not taking some action as you claim.

 

[orr]

The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives.

I can't speak for others , my criticism stem from the political manipulation for advantage leading to the inhumane horror of these offshore illegal gulags at obscene cost.

A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.

How does that wash with the mantra of 'never on Australian soil'?

Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.

What are the UNHCR's ' broader social objectives '? and stick to those escaping persecution .... this'll make for interesting reading.

 

[SirRumpole]

What are the UNHCR's ' broader social objectives '? and stick to those escaping persecution .... this'll make for interesting reading.

Maybe the UNHCR or the UN in general wants to see a transfer of people from poor countries in general to richer countries whether they are being persecuted or not, economic refugeeism if you like.

Whether that is with the approval of the host countries or not is a different matter, but Australia has had a large migrant intake for some time and I suspect that most of those would have been from poorer countries.

We also have refugee resettlement programs (fairly large compared to our population), plus a generous foreign aid program, so I think we have a valid argument that we have already done our bit for the less well off and shouldn't have to deal with uninvited arrivals as well.

 

[drsmith]

I can't speak for others , my criticism stem from the political manipulation for advantage leading to the inhumane horror of these offshore illegal gulags at obscene cost.

If you think our current border protection policies is that rather than keeping our borders secure, what's your alternative to keep our borders secure ?

 

[luutzu]

The Labor Government under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd wasted $11 billion by allowing illegals to enter our country and we are still counting the cost 3 years on........How many schools and hospitals could have been built with the $11billion +? How much less interest would we now be paying?

And don't talk about the waste on pink bats and overpriced school halls.

You say what the heck are our taxes for??.......We elect politicians to handle our taxes and manage the economy with care and diligence and not go wasting it like occurred in 2007/2013 and please don't use the excuse of the GFC.

It was because you complained about the government not doing enough about human misery in detention camps that I suggested you show some sympathy and set an example amongst your leftist buddies by sponsoring one or two...take them into your house and show some good spirit......If you all got together you might even shame the government for not taking some action as you claim.

Can you link to details of that $11 billion and counting figure?

Noco, pink batts and school halls would be what smart economists call stimulus. When the global economy was in meltdown, Australia being lucky enough to have some cash and the mines... such economic stimulus did actually create jobs.

Yes it wasn't managed properly; there were safety oversight and loopholes... but proper economic management, particularly in time of economic recession/depression is to fund that public projects and works. It would be irresponsible, and counter-productive, to get into Austerity.

Look around the world where Austerity was imposed and see how their economy fare. Total disasters. Oh wait, that's due to Muslim illegals.

When gov't impose Austerity... the first few things that goes are senior pensions, healthcare, education and other public "waste". Follow this on with record low interest rate and those not rich enough to have stock portfolio or enough to buy property will see their savings earning practically nothing while borrowers (big corporations and rich investors) take it and get richer from it.

Add on top cuts in assistance and pensions; the jacking up of fees etc., and the economy either go nowhere or go broke.

Then when it's near breaking, the bankers and investors who got the cash for next to nothing advise politicians to sell state assets just to keep the plebs from getting too upset they'd start a war.

Anyway, I still don't know why or how you still think these policies and words the politicians blabber on are honest good ideas because they care for the likes of you and me. Well, maybe you are loaded like them but ya, might be fighting for the wrong cause noco.

 

[luutzu]

Maybe the UNHCR or the UN in general wants to see a transfer of people from poor countries in general to richer countries whether they are being persecuted or not, economic refugeeism if you like.

Whether that is with the approval of the host countries or not is a different matter, but Australia has had a large migrant intake for some time and I suspect that most of those would have been from poorer countries.

We also have refugee resettlement programs (fairly large compared to our population), plus a generous foreign aid program, so I think we have a valid argument that we have already done our bit for the less well off and shouldn't have to deal with uninvited arrivals as well.

You know the UN is just a farce right? Set up to either rubber stamp and give legitimacy to what the major powers want or be seen as irrelevant.

Now and then they can't be bought off by the big boys, like on Iraq II... but look what happen when they did that? Totally ignored and laughed at.

 

[luutzu]

If you think our current border protection policies is that rather than keeping our borders secure, what's your alternative to keep our borders secure ?

If our borders aren't secure, these "illegals" wouldn't have been caught and there'd be a fullblown invasion already.

If not openly invading us, they'd just sneeked in and live among the slumps and ghettos.

Is that the case? No.

So the borders are secured.

You can't say the borders are not secure because illegals and refugees keep on coming to knock and ask if we'd help them out.

So all these "sovereign border" nonsense are designed to not secure the borders, but designed so that no uninvited guess come knocking so we'd have to wake up at night and check their credentials.

Let's remind ourselves that it is, under international law, not a crime for people to come to another country's border seeking asylum. They are not breaking any law by running away from the crazies of the world.

 

[luutzu]

Off topic --

Maybe if they zoned in on teaching children how to read and write, rather than all their other 'waste of money' rubbish programs, then the parents wouldn't be leaving in droves for the private system.

Chaos in Australian Education.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6&p=903407#post903407

Why would you want kids to only learn how to read and write? Read what? Write about what?

Got to give them some art and science, some critical thinking and skills so they can write and read a bit more than mere repetition of official "facts" and history.

Seems a bit of a waste to only put that brain of ours towards learning one or two thing - and do it repeatedly over and over for a few cookies and milk.

 

[drsmith]

If a government of a nation is not in control of who enters and leaves that nation, the border is not secure. It's as simple as that.

 

[banco]

If a government of a nation is not in control of who enters and leaves that nation, the border is not secure. It's as simple as that.

Accepting your definition for the moment is there any lengths you wouldn't go to in order to keep the border secure. You clearly have no qualms about turning the lives those on Manus etc. into a living hell for example.

 

[explod]

Why would you want kids to only learn how to read and write? Read what? Write about what?

Got to give them some art and science, some critical thinking and skills so they can write and read a bit more than mere repetition of official "facts" and history.

Seems a bit of a waste to only put that brain of ours towards learning one or two thing - and do it repeatedly over and over for a few cookies and milk.

Well said.

And the earth belongs to all of us. Our ancestors left the shores of Europe and thought nothing of taking over and occupying the lands of others. So its just payback time and we should all feel obliged, while we can to accomodate them. If you think they are illegal, remember the stealth of your forbears.

In the next few years the populations are really going to overwhelm. Instead of 80 billion on submarines what about populating the northern shores of Australia and setting it up so that they have to green it, grow thier own food and protect themselves and our north. They may have to eat a few wild camels, horses, camels and crocs for a start but I reckon it could make a good start whilst we think about the next move.

 

[noco]

Can you link to details of that $11 billion and counting figure?

Noco, pink batts and school halls would be what smart economists call stimulus. When the global economy was in meltdown, Australia being lucky enough to have some cash and the mines... such economic stimulus did actually create jobs.

Yes it wasn't managed properly; there were safety oversight and loopholes... but proper economic management, particularly in time of economic recession/depression is to fund that public projects and works. It would be irresponsible, and counter-productive, to get into Austerity.

Look around the world where Austerity was imposed and see how their economy fare. Total disasters. Oh wait, that's due to Muslim illegals.

When gov't impose Austerity... the first few things that goes are senior pensions, healthcare, education and other public "waste". Follow this on with record low interest rate and those not rich enough to have stock portfolio or enough to buy property will see their savings earning practically nothing while borrowers (big corporations and rich investors) take it and get richer from it.

Add on top cuts in assistance and pensions; the jacking up of fees etc., and the economy either go nowhere or go broke.

Then when it's near breaking, the bankers and investors who got the cash for next to nothing advise politicians to sell state assets just to keep the plebs from getting too upset they'd start a war.

Anyway, I still don't know why or how you still think these policies and words the politicians blabber on are honest good ideas because they care for the likes of you and me. Well, maybe you are loaded like them but ya, might be fighting for the wrong cause noco.

I trust this link will satisfy your thirst for information pertaining to the cost of maintaining illegal immigrants.


http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ker-that-arrives/story-fncynjr2-1226655532914

 

[noco]

Accepting your definition for the moment is there any lengths you wouldn't go to in order to keep the border secure. You clearly have no qualms about turning the lives those on Manus etc. into a living hell for example.

What an exaggeration!!!!!!!.....The majority of those on Manus are economic refugees and have not escaped persecution that is why they throw away their passports and IDs.

 

[luutzu]

I trust this link will satisfy your thirst for information pertaining to the cost of maintaining illegal immigrants.


http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ker-that-arrives/story-fncynjr2-1226655532914

I actually have to open an Excel up for this one.

Let's assume all the figures given are fair and balance (ha ha, I like Murdoch, grade A a hole he is).

Claim1: $1.5 billion spent on 22,500 refugees

News Ltd.'s Maths:
"And new break-down of costs this year show taxpayers have spent $1.5 billion maintaining the detention network amid record arrivals which are approaching 22,500 this financial year."

This $1.5B include:

$131M for welfare payment
$18M for housing and furnishing those houses
$278.31M to Red Cross for helping out ($603M over 26 months)
$75M to Salvation Army for welfare and support services
$8M to Save the Children fund

---
Totals = $510.31M.

Where's the other $1 billion?

---------

Claim 2: "... more than 40,000 asylum seekers expected to be in Australia next financial year (2014?)

Question:

Currently there's 22,500, who's expecting that to almost double in a year's time to 40,000? "Some people"?

Let's look at the fact, in hindsight too.


http://www.asrc.org.au/resources/statistics/detention-and-refugee-statistics/

Total seem to drop over time noco.

Currently, in 2016, totals around 35,000. So almost 3 years early?

--------------


From same site, stats show that between 2009-2013, of all claims processed, 90.6% were granted protection (see pie charts).

That's a High Disctinction score... indicating that maybe the reason people pick up and leave their homeland for unknown seas... chances are 90.6% of them would be found to deserve protection.

 

[noco]

I actually have to open an Excel up for this one.

Let's assume all the figures given are fair and balance (ha ha, I like Murdoch, grade A a hole he is).

Claim1: $1.5 billion spent on 22,500 refugees

News Ltd.'s Maths:
"And new break-down of costs this year show taxpayers have spent $1.5 billion maintaining the detention network amid record arrivals which are approaching 22,500 this financial year."

This $1.5B include:

$131M for welfare payment
$18M for housing and furnishing those houses
$278.31M to Red Cross for helping out ($603M over 26 months)
$75M to Salvation Army for welfare and support services
$8M to Save the Children fund

---
Totals = $510.31M.

Where's the other $1 billion?

---------

Claim 2: "... more than 40,000 asylum seekers expected to be in Australia next financial year (2014?)

Question:

Currently there's 22,500, who's expecting that to almost double in a year's time to 40,000? "Some people"?

Let's look at the fact, in hindsight too.

View attachment 66488
http://www.asrc.org.au/resources/statistics/detention-and-refugee-statistics/

Total seem to drop over time noco.

Currently, in 2016, totals around 35,000. So almost 3 years early?

--------------


From same site, stats show that between 2009-2013, of all claims processed, 90.6% were granted protection (see pie charts).

That's a High Disctinction score... indicating that maybe the reason people pick up and leave their homeland for unknown seas... chances are 90.6% of them would be found to deserve protection.

View attachment 66489

$70,000 per person per year.

You are forgetting it was so slack under Labor and that is why a visa was so easy to get under Labor....Very poor checks made......All Labor wanted to do was get them out of detention centers because they had run out of room.