Akmal Shaikh - China executes mentally ill Briton

Garpal Gumnut said:

btw, you guys n gals would all fail 101 essay writing as the majority still ignore the "mentally" part of the statement.

Click to expand...

BTW GG, I brought up the 'mentally" part of the statement but the cheersquad for the execution on this thread have decided, given their profound ignorance of bipolar disease and unwillingness to find out even the basics about it, that being mentally ill it is still OK to be executed.

Timmy said:

BTW GG, I brought up the 'mentally" part of the statement but the cheersquad for the execution on this thread have decided, given their profound ignorance of bipolar disease and unwillingness to find out even the basics about it, that being mentally ill it is still OK to be executed.

Click to expand...

I am my own cheer squad ......... 4kg of smack is still 4kg of smack regardless of the mental state of the person carrying it ........ There punishment is already set for having 4kg of smack, not to worry why are they carrying it.

nunthewiser said:

I am my own cheer squad ......... 4kg of smack is still 4kg of smack regardless of the mental state of the person carrying it ........ There punishment is already set for having 4kg of smack, not to worry why are they carrying it.

Click to expand...

Nun, I can respect your point of view (I don't agree of course). The reason I can respect your point of view is you are not basing your view on an ignorance of bipolar disease, which so many others are, using their ignorance to justify their ill-found opinion. I wont repeat myself about this, gets boring.

No cheer squad here Timmy, I am not one for the death penalty, but its their rules.

I would like to see harsher sentencing here in Australia though for traffickers.

Doesnt it go by weight on how much a person is trying to traffick in for them to get executed in those countries? Why are we talking about one ecstasy tablet?

Tink said:

No cheer squad here Timmy, I am not one for the death penalty, but its their rules.

Click to expand...

Apologies, Tink. Maybe I am being insensitive with that analogy.

Given we are talking about putting a bullet into the brain of a mentally ill person I will persist with the insensitivity a little longer.

IFocus said:

Nice one Fishbuld I wondered if anyone would bring this up.

Drugs, supply vers demand some thing we all are experts at

One way to remove demand is for the Government to be the supplier and once you are the supplier you then have some control over the users and their behavior.

Those nasty drug dealers are screwed because they no longer have a market.

Click to expand...

Exactly right.


Glad someone else sees it.

It needs to be remembered that the Chinese view of mental illness is different to ours.

For example anyone who is anti regme may be labelled as mentally ill.

This is a hangover from Marxist times and was practised in the USSR up until recently.

So "mentally ill" means nothing to the Chinese. It is trumped by the crime. In this case carrying lethal drugs.

Remember the Chinese nation was enslaved by the Western Powers in the latter part of the 19th and early 20th centuries by being supplied with cheap opium.

So they are naturally a little bit sensitive on this topic.

gg

These are very good points GG.

IFocus said:

One way to remove demand is for the Government to be the supplier and once you are the supplier you then have some control over the users and their behavior.

Click to expand...

Yep, just like alcohol, and we can see how well thats going..

Timmy said:

Apologies, Tink. Maybe I am being insensitive with that analogy.

Given we are talking about putting a bullet into the brain of a mentally ill person I will persist with the insensitivity a little longer.

Click to expand...

Timmy, he got the jab in the arm, the bullet was not used on him.

pilots said:

Timmy, he got the jab in the arm, the bullet was not used on him.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification pilots, my mistake.

As usual Peter Hitchens is on the money in this debate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/c...ight-save-drug-runners-sell-nation-river.html

We fight to save drug-runners yet sell a nation down the river

By Peter Hitchens
Last updated at 10:00 PM on 02nd January 2010

How sad it is to watch the British Government lecturing mighty China over the execution of a miserable drug-smuggler. What a pathetic issue to pick.

I think people should be executed only for murder or treason, and then after a jury trial with the presumption of innocence. And the frenzied pursuit of drug-smugglers, when nothing is done about the criminals who take such drugs, is a waste of time.

But that’s the way they do things in China, where excuses such as ‘bipolar disorder’ and ‘I was abused as a child’ don’t make much impression on the judges, and where it is pretty well known that they put lots of criminals to de.............

Click to expand...

gg

Tink said:

Yep, just like alcohol, and we can see how well thats going..

Click to expand...

Tink read up on when prohibition in the US was happening and the involvement of criminals then decide how its going..............also big difference between crime involving alcoholics and crime involving drug addicts

Timmy said:

Are you being deliberately irrational here? Or is this just more posturing? Posters are trying to bring up reasonable points and you respond with this sort of inane question? Or is it just sarcasm in the absence of any reasonable response?

Click to expand...

Yes, I was being somewhat sarcastic. No, I have not been 'posturing' as you put it in any of my earlier remarks.

I am not in favour of the death penalty. However, that is China's law which the rest of us need to respect. You have conceded this point to Tink.

Essentially all I have said is that someone with bipolar disorder is not by virtue of that disorder rendered unable to understand the laws of a country, so cannot be held not responsible for the carrying of drugs into that country.

Do you disagree with this? If so, please spell out exactly why.

Similarly, since you have accused several of us on this thread of having no understanding of the symptoms of bipolar disorder, perhaps you would be good enough to explain just what constitutes this disorder, previously known as manic depression.

Even making allowances for the likely possibility that your extreme sensitivity in this discussion is a result of some personal connection with bipolar disorder, your rudeness in disagreeing with others seems unreasonable to me.

Timmy said:

BTW GG, I brought up the 'mentally" part of the statement but the cheersquad for the execution on this thread have decided, given their profound ignorance of bipolar disease and unwillingness to find out even the basics about it, that being mentally ill it is still OK to be executed.

Click to expand...

I think you are confusing acknowledging the reality of China's laws with being a 'cheersquad for execution'. It is absolutely not the same thing.

I have a family memebr with bi-polar and they know exactly right from wrong.......

Having said that certain kinds of crimes while manic are likely, but international drug courier is not likely...

Julia and I have corresponded privately in relation to our views on the Corby matter. In the absence of any agreement, Julia has suggested we call a truce.

Just letting the group know in case you think I'm ignoring Julia's questions.
If Julia wishes to discuss the matter further then I'm more than willing to do so, privately.

As for the general content of the thread, it seems to have broadened to a discussion of how to control crime and in particular, drug-related crime.
Here's my final take on the matter.....

If you want to learn how to do something successfully, you can do worse than study the methods of someone who's already successful in that field.
Singapore has an excellent track record in controlling all types of crime, not just drug-related crime.
They just don't tolerate crime escalating out of control like it's doing in Australia. They have the sense to do whatever is needed, including extremely tough penalties where necessary, to ensure that their citizens and their visitors obey the law and behave responsibly. As a result, they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world and they're one of the world's safest countries to visit or live in.
They're not crime free - no country ever will be - but they're making us look like complete amateurs when it comes to controlling crime.
At the very least we should look closely at their methods and consider using them as a model for our own crime control policies.
I have absolutely no doubt that we could make a huge difference to our crime statistics if we took a leaf out of Singapore's book.

Seems to me that we focus too much time and effort discussing what doesn't or won't work, but we ignore what's been proven to work in countries like Singapore.

I'm finished with this thread. There's a limit to how long I'll go on discussing the same issues over and over again, and that limit has been reached.
I'll leave you lot to go on arguing among yourselves. I'm off outside to pursue more productive and enjoyable activities.

condog said:

I have a family memebr with bi-polar and they know exactly right from wrong.......

Click to expand...

Not on subject, but hope one day most faulty genes are removed from out genetic material, otherwise fabric of our society will not be able to sustain the way we would like to live.

bunyip said:

...
Singapore has an excellent track record in controlling all types of crime, not just drug-related crime.
...

Click to expand...

Sooner we adopt proven way of producing desired results the better, as with UK or US models we don't seem to get anywhere meaningful !

sam76 said:

Are you saying that bi-polar can be a plausible defence for importing 4kgs of Heroin, Timmy?

Click to expand...

I have also asked something similar. It would be good if you could respond, Timmy.

bunyip said:

Julia and I have corresponded privately in relation to our views on the Corby matter. In the absence of any agreement, Julia has suggested we call a truce.

Click to expand...

There is a certain irony in the fact that I am in trouble with Bunyip for (leaving the Corby issue aside) suggesting that capital punishment is not necessarily the answer to crime, or that a more hardline approach to crime is what Australia should pursue. I simply don't know. Bunyip has a good point when he brings up the lack of crime in Singapore. Hard not to be persuaded by this.

But on the other hand, Timmy thinks I'm being lacking in understanding for thinking bipolar does not constitute a valid reason for not comprehending the drug laws of another country, particularly one as ruthless as China.

I've run the "does someone with bipolar usually lack the capacity to understand laws and penalties involved in drug trafficking" question by three medical people: a GP, a psychologist and a psychiatrist. All have said that, even if a person experienced a psychotic episode in the course of bipolar (which they all suggested is quite rare), it would be difficult to imagine this lasting long enough to allow the planning and arrangement of the trafficking of the 4kg of heroin into China. They may, of course, all be wrong.

We can get bogged down in the finer points of mental illness which after all is always a subjective clinical diagnosis. It's not like diabetes e.g. where a laboratory test will give a definitive diagnosis.

We don't know actually whether the person concerned did have any mental illness. We know that his family have claimed this. I have not seen any verification such as his being treated for this. Nor have I seen any comment by any medical personnel that if he did have any version of bipolar he would therefore have been incapable of understanding China's drug laws.

I would really be grateful, Timmy, if you could answer whether you consider mental illness should excuse someone from a crime. I think we could say that anyone who commits a crime could be considered to be mentally ill, if you were to take such a philosophy to an extreme.

I will agree, though, that 30 minutes is not long enough for a fair trial and withdraw my earlier comments on this, with apologies.

I feel passionately about drug users, dealers and traffickers for very personal reasons. Someone to whom I was very close was an opiate addict, and he manipulated his professional occupation not only to illegally prescribe for himself, but also succumbed to blackmail from heroin addicts, eventually ending up dealing heroin himself. Ultimately he went to jail and is now dead, but before that he destroyed a marriage, two children, his career and the trust of his friends and colleagues.

So, no, I am never, ever going to have understanding or compassion for anyone at all who perpetuates the scourge of drug abuse.

I acknowledge that perhaps I lack objectivity in this regard.

Julia said:

I have also asked something similar. It would be good if you could respond, Timmy.

Click to expand...

I already have, see post #40.